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submitted 3 weeks ago by return2ozma@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world
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[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 129 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Ridiculous.

I get the notion that biological sex is one thing, but gender is another thing entirely. They're still conflating the two.

And even in saying that, biological sex is not a binary because we know intersex individuals exist—people born with ambiguous sex organs, sex organs that don't match chromosomal makeup, or even chromosomal makeups beyond the typical XX/XY. For all of the claims of "scientific reality," the figures named in this article seem to do a very good job of cherry picking facts while ignoring the actual, less convenient reality of science.

[-] rowinxavier@lemmy.world 95 points 3 weeks ago

"It's basic biology, XX or XY, man or woman!"

"OK, but have you ever looked into intermediate or advanced biology?"

Dawkins is such a disappointing person. He has all the knowledge required to not only understand but also advocate for trans people but instead is defending the Anglican church, "light pedophelia", and gender essentialism. He wrote a couple of books with some good parts but honestly, he is a sad old man and should be forgotten. Science moves forward one funeral at a time.

[-] lemmy_get_my_coat@lemmy.world 35 points 3 weeks ago

Science moves forward one funeral at a time.

That is badass

[-] joostjakob@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

I knew it sounded familiar. It even has a name and a wikipedia article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_principle

[-] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 24 points 3 weeks ago

Long ago I saw him speak at a local gathering of humanists and even despite believing that atheism was a morally superior path and that religion was a harmful plague on humanity, still came away completely repulsed by him. He just seemed like an egotistical jerk with not very complex thoughts on society. I believe he was almost entirely focused on Islam rather than the more proximally harmful Christianity. It's not at all surprising to me that he ended up where he is.

[-] Deway@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

light pedophelia

"That can't be true!"

Looks it up : "Dear spaghetti monster, what did I just read".

[-] kaitco@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

Science moves forward one funeral at a time.

Imma steal this, okay? Just letting you know now because this is absolute #facts.

[-] rowinxavier@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago

It is called Planck's principle, so we are stealing from Max Planck.

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it ...
An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth.
— Max Planck, Scientific autobiography, 1950, p. 33, 97

Cool phrasing from him, lots of people have enjoyed it since, and honestly from my exposure to the field it is accurate. The push back against plate technonics was hard, as was the clinging to steady state cosmology. Oh, and miasma as a model of disease. We really are just slightly smart monkeys.

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[-] LillyPip@lemmy.ca 72 points 3 weeks ago

Something about doors and arses.

He lost all credibility and relevance when he piled into the bigotry clown car. Atheism doesn’t have saints.

[-] masterofn001@lemmy.ca 60 points 3 weeks ago

Richard Dawkins is his own religion.

Man thinks everything he says is infallible.

[-] ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago

And unfortunately (and ironically) for too long some of his followers have acted like he is god.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Strong atheism is, in fact, a religious belief: claims of the non-existence of gods are no more falsifiable than claims of the existence of them, so in order to "know" there is no god one must have faith.

In other words, if religion is the faith-based belief in N gods, where N = many for religions like Hinduism and N = 1 for religions like Christianity, strong atheism is simply the religion where N = 0.

Meanwhile, scientific skepticism/disbelief in god(s) due to lack of positive evidence is more like agnosticism/weak atheism.


Edit: see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism


Edit 2: I genuinely don't understand what the downvoters are so upset about. Could some of you please reply to explain?

[-] LillyPip@lemmy.ca 30 points 3 weeks ago

How is it any different than claiming with near certainty that leprechauns aren’t real?

I’m nearly 100% certain leprechauns aren’t real. Is my disbelief in leprechauns a religious belief? I similarly don’t believe in the Greek or Roman or Egyptian gods. Is that a religious belief, too?

The Christian god is a positive claim, and my near 100% certainty it’s not real is not a ‘belief’ unless you’re operating from a baseline that assumes it’s true, which is not how anything works. Strong atheism is a strong unwillingness to believe anything for which there isn’t evidence. That’s the opposite of faith – faith being the belief in things without evidence.

[-] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 9 points 3 weeks ago

The only enlightened path for a Real Objective Thinker is to accept that anything might exist! If not you're just engaging in the same mystical thinking as those people who believe sky-daddy is all powerful and all good, but is just working in mysterious ways all those times good people need help and nothing happens. It's exactly the same you hypocrite. /s

[-] grue@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Look, I'm just going by the classification system in the Wikipedia article I cited. I didn't even slightly imply any of the bullshit you just tried to ascribe to me.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

How is it any different than claiming with near certainty that leprechauns aren’t real?

Does Richard fucking Dawkins claim to be "near certain?"

[-] LillyPip@lemmy.ca 10 points 3 weeks ago

?

Sorry, not following you, I couldn’t actually care less what Richard fucking Dawkins thinks tbh.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

My comment was in the context of replying to https://lemmy.world/comment/14237089:

Richard Dawkins is his own religion.


Edit: also, funnily enough, it turns out that Dawkins does claim to be "near certain," not "certain." That was news to me, given his reputation!

That's relevant because it puts a finer point on just how fervent the belief needs to be to count as "strong atheism."

Source:

In The God Delusion, Dawkins describes people for whom the probability of the existence of God is between "very high" and "very low" as "agnostic" and reserves the term "strong atheist" for those who claim to know there is no God. He categorizes himself as a "de facto atheist" but not a "strong atheist" on this scale.

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[-] thax@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

There are some semantics at play, reflected in your link. Many atheists take the label to mean simply: absence of belief. That is: atheists require evidence before making a claim. As such, those that "believe" in nonexistence wind up falling into another category: anti-theists. There's hubris involved in making the leap to belief, so I wager many just want to illuminate the distinction.

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[-] JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee 54 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Well, I guess the trash took itself out.

Whenever I see some educated individual trying to make some sort of 'credible' stance against trans rights I just see an overgrown child.

These are grown adults who are angry that the simplistic worldview that they were taught as children doesn't hold up to reality.

It was challenged by the mere existence of people who are different than themselves and they don't want to confront the possibility that they were wrong(the people they care about were also wrong), so they the blame trans people for evoking those emotions instead of doing some introspection.

[-] Zementid@feddit.nl 12 points 3 weeks ago

I first wanted to ask why the atheism foundation supports any religion at all... then I read the article, then I saw the ' '... what an asshat.

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[-] veganpizza69@lemmy.world 49 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Richard "Culturally Christian" Dawkins can go meme himself out of the meme pool.

[-] davidagain@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

I get, given how right wing, nasty, anti women and anti LGBTQ+ the American church is, why you would want to put Richard Dawkins, who is so nasty and anti trans (probably among other things) into the same bucket, but he's British, not American, and famously very firmly anti-religion.

He has always been a dick, whatever he was trying to convince people of, and it's no surprise he continues to be a dick in his old age. It doesn't mean he's a Christian. He's really, really, really not.

[-] meyotch@slrpnk.net 29 points 3 weeks ago

“Culturally Christian” is not the same as “Christian“. The man clearly holds on to many of the perspectives he picked up being raised Anglican.

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[-] veganpizza69@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)
[-] davidagain@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

OK, the first article points out that he has a lot in common with the American right wing churches in that they don't actually believe a word of it and just use it as a cultural sheild for their hatred, which is a fair point.

The second one doesn't seem as related.

[-] veganpizza69@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

The second one is about how far [right] "Culturally Christian" can go.

[-] dustyData@lemmy.world 43 points 3 weeks ago

“Why should sex be changeable while other physical traits cannot? Feelings don’t create reality,” he wrote. “Instead, in biology ‘sex’ is traditionally defined by the size and mobility of reproductive cells. “It is not ‘transphobic’ to accept the biological reality of binary sex and to reject concepts based on ideology. One should never have to choose between scientific reality and trans rights.”

As a fellow psychologist, I must regretfully state that this is the stupidest thing ever written by a psychologist. Our entire science is built upon the notion that feelings indeed create and modify (social) reality*. Sex is not gender, and he fumbled the most basic differentiation of concepts.

Heteronormative gender roles, on the other hand, are categorically a form of ideology and to defend them in place of basic human decency is a disgrace, good riddance to both asshats, I say. Specially with such a tenous biological argument that any good biologist can tell you is patently false. Gametes are not binary, there are hundred of thousands of intersex individuals for which this narrow definition doesn't apply.

Grant is absolutely right, but I don't expect the mentally weak asshole who invented the word "meme" to ever understand social sciences. His book is a pathetic pseudo scientific intrusion in a field he doesn't understand in the slightest.

*: some philosophers would even argue that there's no reality but social reality and both are one and the same.

[-] OutlierBlue@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 weeks ago

mentally weak asshole who invented the word “meme”

He coined the word to mean a thought or idea that spreads through a population. Internet memes are completely unrelated to his usage. It's not like he created the first insanity wolf meme or something.

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[-] solrize@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Dawkins isn't a psychologist afaict. I had to check.

[-] dustyData@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

He isn't which is why I called him intrusist there at the end for writing a book about psychology and neurology which he doesn't understand. But the quote is from Coyne, another biologist who wrote the reply and was supported by Pinker, who is a psychologist and should've known better. None of these people know what they're talking about and are acting in this whole thing from passion instead of reason and evidence. Which is ironic, I believe.

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[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 33 points 3 weeks ago

Richard "cultural christian" Dawkins.

[-] randon31415@lemmy.world 29 points 3 weeks ago

I am reminded of Willian Jennings Bryan, who in his old age advocated for the eight-hour work day, a minimum wage, the right of unions to strike, women's suffrage, and then Alcohol Prohibition and of course Anti-Evolution.

Even the most progressive will turn to "I am old and don't like new ideas!" as they age.

[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

I'm seeing that in some of my older friends. Some of them can be manually taught new ideas, but it gets tiring. Well, they still vote for the most progressive option on any ballot, so I'm not bothering with it anymore.

[-] stringere@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 weeks ago

I'm getting older and get weird looks when I tell people I refuse to install apps that can be websites and if a company is going to force me to use their app I am simply not spending money there.
Returning my Norelco shaver and Beats headphones I received for Christmas this year because I don't need an app for headphones and sure as fuck do not need an app for my shaver!

[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

I'm talking more about political prospectives. Your example is about privacy concerns and superficial tech advances, which I've never really seen a strong generational bias.

[-] clot27@lemm.ee 24 points 3 weeks ago
[-] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 25 points 3 weeks ago

Dawkins schtick was pretending he was not racist but hated Islam. Turns out the man is simply racist.

[-] nifty@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

Same with Sam Harris.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago
[-] WhatSay@slrpnk.net 14 points 3 weeks ago

He's 83 and can't handle the changing world, he can go spend his last years alone like every old asshole does.

[-] Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Richard Dawkins, the only man with the balls to say what nobody else is thinking.

Cringe as usual, I never liked the guy. A pretentious old windbag imo.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 9 points 3 weeks ago

Can we have a transgender religion though? Not to encompass the trans rights movement but to support it. Make memes religious art and Blåhaj a figure of worship. Girls'/boys' nights, enby sleepovers etc. could be classified as gender-affirming rituals. Use constitutional protection of religious expression to support free gender expression. Medication and procedures would of course be sacred too. Members would be required to maintain a support network for all trans folk (including non-members).

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[-] dustyData@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It's valid to get mad at the article being removed and not discussed. But I have to say, that argument calling "gender ideology" a religion and its justification reads exactly as a right-wing anti-woke argument calling science a religion. Or the way I like to translate it, "everything I don't like is X" syndrome. Be it woke, religion, or anything else. It's a blatant display of rigid thinking. Just because someone didn't intent to hurt doesn't mean their actions can't hurt, and that's a big part of critical feminist theory (of which they might not entirely understand much about). Our actions and words have material and social consequences that extend beyond our intentions. Maybe try to understand why they were injurious instead of throwing a performative tantrum.

Edit: this comment is a reply to another comment and somehow got duplicated by lemmy as both a reply to OP and the comment. My apologies.

[-] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Seriously, I thought there was already an agreement on how to approach this. Sex is the biological identification. Gender is the social identification. Sexuality describes the relation towards other sexes and genders. Neither take is really is disagreeing with the other, but rather than refer to proper identification and the differences between gender, sex, and sexuality, all they are doing is raising drama and playing hot potato with the terms that already cover this.

Yes, sex had a biological objective determinant (except for outlying cases). Yes, gender is subjective to ideology. However someone wants to identify themselves should be defined by their gender, yet things like how they get treated at the hospital is going to be determined by their biological sex. "Experts" (usually the self-appointed kind) unwilling to make any compromise at the risk of putting their big massively throbbing authority at risk, more at eleven.

[-] yesman@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

My opinion of anti-theists in general is that they're like "fat hate", just basic bigots who think they found a loophole. In anti-theist spaces for example, Islamophobia isn't tolerated, it's enforced.

Dawkins was always a public bigot. It's no wonder he talks just like American conservative Christian, he's been in bed with them for years.

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[-] HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 weeks ago
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this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2024
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