And apparently, also when you think that 'They' is a perfectly serviceable gender-neutral singular pronoun, but are willing to use other pronouns if asked to.
EDIT: Other removable offenses on Blahaj now include questioning mod/admin decisions and quoting the modlog as a reason why you're leaving.
I think that account is a social experiment designed to see how fucking bizarre of a line of bullshit can they force down other people's throats
Yeah, they've kinda lost the point.
Don't know that it's power tripping because it's a matter of whether or not you believe that neopronouns are or are not part of trans rights and trans issues. If you do, then they're maintaining their space as a place for trans and trans adjacent folks to not have to deal with the bullshit of constantly defending and fighting for every single thing.
So I get it. Once you believe that, and you're maintaining a space for trans people, you absolutely have to draw that line.
I don't agree with it, but that's not the point. It doesn't matter if I agree or not. It only matters that blahaj is a trans space first and above anything else, and they do buy into neopronouns.
They've also bought into protecting a couple of trolls because of that, but that's the down side.
But, yeah, it's a fucking mess when you can't even use a broadly accepted neutral term as the default until you have a specific one. Which, being real, keeping track of random online user names and their choice of pronouns just isn't worth it. Why the fuck should anyone bother?
Irl? Absolutely. You've got faces to connect things to. But online, with people that are essentially acquaintances at best, how the fuck are you going to remember that doggyboy19 is the one that uses xexu, but puppyboy18 uses xenu? My dyslexic ass already has enough trouble keeping track of the user names that don't have partterns that match established words. Neopronouns amount to a random string of lines and circles to me, there's no fucking pattern to memorize at all, there's nothing I can use to keep track of them.
Which is going off the topic of your post here, but it's one of the reasons "they" is a shit ton better. You don't have dyslexics, people with English as a second or third language trying to have a nice conversation and being treated like an asshole because they can't follow the randomly chosen garbles used by some of the more absurd neopronoun folks.
Just going to drop this here, it seems relevant.
The effect created by such Internet trolls is not very big, but they manage to make certain forums meaningless because people stop commenting on the articles when these trolls sit there and constantly create an aggressive, hostile atmosphere toward those whom they don’t like. The trolls react to certain news with torrents of mud and abuse. This makes it meaningless for a reasonable person to comment on anything there.
I think there are some people here who have become kung fu masters at the art of straddling the line of acceptable behavior, so that they can remain on the network making everyone’s life unpleasant and bringing nothing of value, while still having a passably plausible claim that they “have a right to be here.” It carries the added bonus of creating division between different factions because some people stick up for them. They’ve often figured out that agglomerating onto tribal hot-buttons like veganism or trans rights is a great way to get knee-jerk support from other members, or at least hesitation to be too quick to ban them, so they can continue to overstay their welcome.
The issue is just how "free" speech should be, also sometimes referred to as the Nazi bar effect. By allowing all types of "freedom", others feel not free anymore to speak up, for fear of what will ensue.
Edit: and I thought it was obvious but to make extra clear, it's also called the paradox of intolerance - somehow allowing people unlimited freedom to speak results in less people being willing to do so.
admin makes a post saying they will enforce the rules around banning people who refuse to use neo pronouns, in a meta community for trans people, and every cis loser has to jump in and play the victim when they get banned for breaking the rules in the post was made to say the rules would be enforced. cry harder.
Let's not go to blahaj, tis a silly place.
I agree with the mods on this one. You don't go into people's spaces and tell them they're living wrong unless they're actively hurting other people. And at the end of the day, using a different word as a pronoun isn't going to hurt you. Heck if you have an app you can just tag them with it.
Using a different word as a pronoun does no harm at all. Requiring that other people gender you properly is perfectly reasonable. Demanding that other people go along with calling you a dragon, and whining about it in ways that cause needless drama if they don’t, does do harm.
This whole issue has absolutely nothing to do with trans rights. The right to tell someone who you think is being ridiculous, that they’re being ridiculous, is an important right on an open communications network. Infringe on that right, and your network suddenly isn’t a good place to be anymore, because people will have their conversations non-consensually interfered with by patently ridiculous stuff which they won’t be permitted to say anything back to. On a network where quite literally the only available currency is words, that is a significant loss.
its not the pronouns. its the excuse to behave in a manner which is tyrannical and using made up pronouns to shield you from any criticism.
these places get to a point where inclusivity becomes weaponized. "if you're not immediately accepting of my specific demands, you're transphobic. don't dare ask questions. Cis scum only does that."
there's a fairly obvious line between the two. and this seems pretty apparently an attempt to use othergender stuff in a way to control others.
YDI.
gatekeeping sure is when you tell someone their gender isn’t real. especially under a post that specifically says “hey don’t tell people their gender isn’t real.”
edit: removing my comments below because the discussion is no longer about respecting trans identities and is just a slapfight. fuck transphobes and get over yourselves on a single tiny user who you should have blocked months ago if you actually had a problem.
gatekeeping sure is when you tell someone their gender isn’t real. especially under a post that specifically says “hey don’t tell people their gender isn’t real.”
Their claimed gender is literally a dragon.
Dragons aren't real.
Dragons.
Aren't.
Real.
sounds like you and the other user will find more fulfillment in other communities than one that is specifically created to be trans accepting. i’m sorry that this user who was exhibiting trollish behavior was your first experience with a person who uses neopronouns. i hope you can come to a point of greater understanding in the future.
This isn't my first experience with people using neopronouns, and I explicitly stated a willingness to use neopronouns.
edit: removing my comments below because the discussion is no longer about respecting trans identities and is just a slapfight. fuck transphobes and get over yourselves on a single tiny user who you should have blocked months ago if you actually had a problem.
You're engaging in an online community that's become so insular and self-absorbed that it's become indistinguishable from parody. You're literally defending dragonfucker as a gender, and furthermore saying that questioning any identity is inherently unacceptable.
Get help.
Literally all genders are made up, why are you getting so bent outta shape over a totally reasonable rule just because one person who stands to benefit from it is kinda annoying???
Literally all genders are made up
Gravity is just made up too. Doesn't mean I'm going to take someone preaching intelligent falling seriously.
why are you getting so bent outta shape over a totally reasonable rule just because one person who stands to benefit from it is kinda annoying???
Look, if you want to have your fantasy roleplay where dragonfucker is a gender, that's on you. Like I said in the message I was removed for, I'm no longer participating in Blahaj. You have fun with your faeries and dragons.
You don't get to complain about other people trolling when you are being this deliberately obtuse.
Gravity is in the most literal sense a force of nature. It has had measurable effects since pretty much the dawn of time. Gender is a social construct. The only effects it has on the world around us is that which we as a society allow it to, and in the absence of any people who believe in such a concept it would cease to exist in any meaningful sense.
Nobody is sincerely claiming that dragons, as in the mythological creatures, actually exist in material reality. By adopting dragonfucker/rider as a gender identity, drag is aligning with the concept of them in some kinda nebulous social sense I'm not gonna pretend to understand.
Maybe drag's trolling about it, but to be honest, I really couldn't give a shit about the specifics of Dragon Rider's identity one way or the other because I think drag's an insufferable shit-stirrer. What really pisses me off here though is that you've actually made me care about this because in spending all day bitching about how drag's a shit-stirring troll, you have engaged in precisely the behaviour that can make drag such a… drag.
Doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd block them. I actually found the whole thing a rather entertaining spectacle of flavor. I'm a middle age cis white guy. If you want to be called tuba, or tata, or whatever, I don't care. If you use a foreign language like Chinese or Arabic I dislike my own ignorance and inability to understand, but I still respect the person's decision.
Ultimately language rules are only a loose correlation based on use and culture. Rules and norms do not create language or cultures, people do. I only see people resisting the patently unfamiliar. "Dragonfucker" or any other pronoun is no different to me than a nickname. If something so simple is able to make just one person feel a little better about their life for a few moments, I'm happy to oblige. The Hippocratic aphorism "first do no harm" does not appear violated in my opinion. If annoyed, block them.
Yeah I will use preferred pronouns for people and users I respect when referring to them. It, xim, drag, doesn't matter.
My contentious take is that using "they/them" in place of the preferred pronoun is not misgendering. I will use it to refer to people identifying as women, men, non-binary, or anything else, it should be neutral. I try to be inclusive as a best effort, and for all intents and purposes treat them as my equal. However, I'm not on a "nickname" basis with everyone and will just block if their asks become not worth my time.
We really need to stop complaining about the pronouns shit, the real problem with dragonfucker isn't with the preferred pronouns, it's the fact that dragonfucker is known to harass individuals who call them out on their trolling or sealioning or disagree with them in any way they can't spin as aggressive or hateful.
I was harassed by an alt of this person because I called them out for their behavior when they decided to make a public attack post on me (now deleted) because I preemptively banned their user account and "spouse" account from communities I moderated for trolling, sealioning, and bad faith arguments.
I clarified that politely and reasonably and also properly contacted pawb.social's admins (since the mentions in their comment weren't done properly) and the following response was to create @draconicistransphobc@discuss.online and create !fuckdraconicneo@discuss.online and start spamming it with abusive content attempting to defame, humiliate, intimidate, or even just scare me. That account also sent me porn in my DMs and made rude insults towards me. I was also told to kill myself and also sent death threats, including an invitation for admins to give out my IP address so I could be hunted down and tortured.
I'm almost certain that dragonfucker is the one who did this since it happened immediately after the post which was made on !meta@pawb.social complaining about the bans, and also there were many slip-ups by that account which indicated it was an alt belonging to dragonfucker. Unfortunately beyond that dragonfucker likely did a good job at covering their tracks, or Lemmy just sucks at identifying people, probably both, but I'm confident enough that I'd be willing to bet real money it was dragonfucker, the circumstances are way too suspicious.
Edit:
Here are some of the messages and comment mentions from the alt account mentioned in the post, fair warning, they're not pleasant. Pornographic imagery has been censored.
CW: Abusive content, threats, suicide encouragement, harassment
A lot of contextual information for these isn't here, to get it the admins of pawb.social and discuss.online would need to be contacted as the content and user accounts associated have been banned.
I mean, if I were somebody who wanted to make the resistance against the nazis weak, this is exactly the kind of bullshit I might think to do. I'm not saying that's why this is going on. Just that there's no reason to rule it out.
I think it's also pretty relevant that dragonfucker has multiple times said that if you're feeling suicidal, then you should instead get a gun and start shooting Trump supporters.
If you're planning on killing yourself, go buy a gun and take a red hat with you. Drag is serious. Get out if you can. Move to another country. But if you're actually hopeless, and there's nothing anyone can say to dissuade you... Then make it count.
https://lemmy.nz/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=12587481
I think the only neo pronoun I know is xe/xir, even then I don't know why you would use it above they/them
Some people don't care for 'they/them' as singular neutral because they're used to it as plural.
Some people want a pronoun(s) specifically for NB identities, rather than a purely neutral pronoun.
These are both valid, if contentious, points.
Gatekeeping whether dragonfucker is a gender is a weird hill to die for. Perhaps equally odd is permabanning for it.
Not featured is the key piece of information. Blahaj is specifically a trans safe space. Pronouns are kind of a big deal in that community. Telling them they aren't really LGBTQ unless you approve of their pronouns is not going to go over well.
I kinda get it, though. It's not easy to draw a line and say this is valid and that is not because you dislike the person or the person is a troll or whatnot, and I'm not specifically talking about drag. Like it doesn't make it ok to call people racial epithets if they're a criminal. So how do you tell which pronouns are valid and which aren't? The conclusion over there is you don't. And I would be really uncomfortable going into a minority space and telling people they're being gay in the wrong way or telling somebody they're reacting to racism in the wrong way or they're not passing or bisexuals aren't valid or whatever else. I get that it may feel heavy handed, but this is the kind of discussion that happens over and over in bad faith. So how do you tell who's having a conversation in good faith or bad faith? Once again, the conclusion seems to be one doesn't and to err on the side of safety for the users of that instance. Bad money drives out good and that's not necessarily your fault, but the coin is worth less regardless of if it's shaved or not.
It’s not easy to draw a line and say this is valid and that is not because you dislike the person or the person is a troll or whatnot, and I’m not specifically talking about drag.
It’s impossible. That’s part of the issue. Whatever boundary you want to draw, there are going to be difficult areas at the borderline or in the extreme cases.
For me, it’s transparently obvious that the dragon person is either taking the piss or suffering from mental illness. Someone else might look at the same situation and say that I’m being ignorant and hateful if I think that. Sure, they can think that.
The thing that makes it hard is that we have to be able to talk about it. Both of those opinions. If I ban the person who thinks I am wrong, they can’t stick up for drag. Bad stuff. If they ban me for saying my feelings on it, saying that they have a right to determine that those feelings are not acceptable to be spoken, then to me, that makes the whole operation and network into a stupid and pointless endeavor.
Part of the whole point of tolerance and open society is that you learn to rock and roll with the people you don’t agree with. I don’t think there’s anybody who will survive for long on the main instances who will be openly racist, transphobic, or anything like that. If you start looking for the most minor of transgressions or differences of opinion, and then shutting out that person because now they’re “bad” and can’t even be spoken to, I think you’re actually interfering quite a lot with your own acceptance in the wider society.
Not everyone is going to think like you. It’s okay. Back in college, I knew some communists who were widely accepted, even by conservatives and “normie” society, because they were firmly in the mode of “this is my stuff, and I’ll tell you about it, but I have 0 expectation that it needs to be your stuff, too.” The ones who had major issues were the ones who had elaborate restrictions on how people needed to see things, how they were allowed to be spoken to, things like that. They wound up isolated into their own pretty small social circle. They didn’t wind up building the wider enlightenment in society that I am guessing they were wanting to do by making the restrictions.
I can see special situations where you really just want your own space safe from people coming in and laughing at you or whatever. I get that. But most of the time, I think setting this super-restrictive model of how everyone needs to talk to you and how they need to look at things in order not to be “bad,” does more harm than good and builds a lot more insincere “acceptance,” than it does genuine understanding about what’s going on with you and your people.
So how do you tell who’s having a conversation in good faith or bad faith? Once again, the conclusion seems to be one doesn’t and to err on the side of safety for the users of that instance.
There is such a thing as toxic positivity - when being permissible itself creates an environment for bad faith actors to dominate discussion. I am generally more hesitant to tell someone their experience of racism is wrong, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that getting a sunburn because they have pale skin is racism. All discussions require boundaries, even if just implicit ones; discussions without boundaries descend into incoherence. It's been declared here that questioning the boundaries of this discussion at all is no longer welcome in Blahaj. And that's... very unfortunate.
When it was just "We're going to be enforcing the standard rules on pronouns and gender on dragonfucker as a gender", it was like "Okay, fine, I'm sad, I'm going to sadpost and leave, but this is well within their rights and I understand what they're trying to do." Removing comments for any questioning of the decision? Bit more irritating.
i love drag, and i don’t think about drag half as much as all the weird fuckers who get SO worked up about drag all the fucken time
I don't even remember the last time I had an interaction with drag, but when the admins come down on the side of "Dragonfucker IS a gender and questioning that is ban-worthy", I find it a sign to move on.
“moving on” would be not continuing to complain about it, but you do you babe 💖
Getting banned on blahaj or hexbear is a good sign that you're still sane tbh.
I legitimately thought better of Blahaj and Ada than this, and it's very disappointing to see otherwise.
Never would I read this.
This is a community in the spirit of "Am I The Asshole" where people can post their own bans from lemmy or reddit or whatever and get some feedback from others whether the ban was justified or not.
Sometimes one just wants to be able to challenge the arguments some mod made and this could be the place for that.
All posts should follow this basic structure:
Expect to receive feedback about your posts, they might even be negative.
Make sure you follow this instance's code of conduct. In other words we won't allow bellyaching about being sanctioned for hate speech or bigotry.
YTPB matrix channel: For real-time discussions about bastards or to appeal mod actions in YPTB itself.
Some acronyms you might see.
Relevant comms