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submitted 1 week ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

Summary

Lockheed Martin UK’s chief, Paul Livingston, defended the F-35 stealth jet program after Elon Musk called it obsolete due to advances in unmanned drones.

Livingston emphasized the F-35’s unmatched capabilities, including stealth, battlefield data-sharing, and cost-efficiency by replacing multiple aircraft types.

While Musk labeled the program overly expensive and poorly designed, Livingston argued drones alone can’t match the F-35’s capabilities or defend against threats like China’s J20 jets.

Despite criticism over cost and reliability, the F-35 remains integral to NATO defenses, with widespread adoption across 19 nations, including the UK.

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[-] Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works 216 points 1 week ago

Elon is such an idiot.

This is the same shit he pulled back when he pushed drones as a solution to all those kids trapped in a cave. They weren't even remotely viable, and when human beings rescued them, he called the leader of that successful operation a "pedo" for absolutely no reason other than his own childish idiocy.

[-] Clent@lemmy.world 69 points 1 week ago

he called the leader of that successful operation a "pedo" for absolutely no reason other than his own childish idiocy.

I think it's darker than that. Their solution involved doping the kids so they were heavily sedated during transport. This was out of fear they would panic and threaten their own life and that of the person transporting them.

The dark part is how Musk's mind associated sedating a child to make them more docile with sexual assault.

[-] mhague@lemmy.world 39 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

He tried the "have sex with me and I'll buy you a toy, but you can't tell anyone" routine with a worker and got caught. Now he knows those tactics don't work as well on adults.

[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago
[-] SomethingBurger@jlai.lu 23 points 1 week ago
[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Thanks!

Edit: I hope he will have to not have any normal people around him any more, as its that easy to get 250.000$ out of him. What a piece of shit.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 40 points 1 week ago

or like when he brained up hyperloop to prevent normal high speed trains development in california, but this one is too glaringly stupid and it's going against thing that already is proven to work, and with no equals

[-] schema@lemmy.world 26 points 1 week ago

That was the first time heard about Musk other than a few articles about him. And it was the moment I knew that he was an actual dumbass.

[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 19 points 1 week ago

he called the leader of that successful operation a "pedo" for absolutely no reason other than his own childish idiocy.

Come on Muskrat call the CEO of Lockheed Martin a pedo

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[-] Carmakazi@lemmy.world 122 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

"Fifth columnist says top of the line weapons system that is already paid for and being fielded is actually fucking stupid and you should totally divest from it and pursue some vague futuretech solution."

It's all so tiresome.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 30 points 1 week ago

it's all "hey don't do the thing that works, instead give money to meeee"

[-] Glitterbomb@lemmy.world 66 points 1 week ago

The guy that can't deliver self driving cars wants to talk about self driving planes?

[-] tempest@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 week ago

To be fair(TM) planes are a bit easier. Fewer obstacles up there and typically a lot of things broadcast that they are there. They were landing the Russian space shuttle by computer in the 80s.

[-] Zron@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

No one was jamming the Russian space shuttle, or shooting missiles at it.

It’s one thing to have an autonomous landing program on an aircraft, it’s another thing entirely to have a program that can react to surface to air missiles, enemy jamming, and over the horizon air to air missiles.

Elon musk is an idiot if he thinks a drone can replace all of the capabilities of even an F22, let alone the F35, which is a multi-role aircraft capable of handling all of the above and more. The F35 can jam, do reconnaissance, network with friendly fighters to fire over the horizon missiles, and drop bombs that weigh 1000 times what a drone can carry. Was it a good use of tax dollars considering the budget overruns? Probably not. But can it be replaced by drone swarms? Hell no. The F35 is an unmatched weapons platform, that’s why nato countries have been buying them.

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[-] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

all from the power of one potato no less!

[-] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 15 points 1 week ago

The cars were going to fly short distances too.

He said he was going to use monopropellant thrusters to make his cars fly.

Hopefully I do not need to point out the many reasons this is a very bad idea, if not functionally impossible.

He also said he was working on an electric aircraft at one point.

Other companies have actually made such things... not Musk though.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

if lithium battery fires were bad, i'm sure that firefighters are thrilled to see hydrazine fires, several hundreds of kg at a time, after random crashes. lmao. what the fuck was he thinking?

[-] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 64 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Drones can be jammed. You cannot match a trained human pilot with an onboard AI pilot, as much as Mr Snake Oil would like you to believe. Imagine fighter jets with the piloting equivalent to the Tesla “FSD”.

Edit: here’s a paywall free mirror for the curious

[-] interurbain1er@sh.itjust.works 19 points 1 week ago

he piloting equivalent to the Tesla “FSD”.

Seems perfect for suicide bombing drone. They are meant to crash after all.

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[-] kautau@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago

Yup, I’m sure that autonomous aircraft will eventually be able to fly better than humans, but that’s very far out. If musk wants to start funding it he can start selling stock and do it himself, don’t give him a dime of taxpayer money

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[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 59 points 1 week ago

it's rich coming from dude whose brainchild is cybertruck to say that F-35 sucks

[-] SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world 43 points 1 week ago

overly expensive and poorly designed

Oh, like a flying cyber truck?

[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 32 points 1 week ago

Is he doing this just to stay relevant?

You know, no publicity is bad publicity (in both meanings).

Why not criticise hospitals, roads, electric transport, burgers, breathing when he's at it?

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 29 points 1 week ago

he might be doing this because he has no idea what he's talking about

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[-] SnotFlickerman 23 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I mean, Musk isn't totally wrong, the F-35 isn't all we'd hoped for. It had a well documented history of cost over-runs, problems in development, and failing the way all multi-tools do, they generally don't do as good of a job as specific tool. Further, the drone war in Ukraine/Russia is showing how effective drones really can be. However, drones are also a specific tool for a specific type of job.

I think it's reasonable to think that both types of flight-based warfare will continue to be relevant, and neither will necessarily dominate the other, because... once again... the right tool, for the right job.

[-] yesman@lemmy.world 39 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I mean, Musk isn’t totally wrong, the F-35 isn’t all we’d hoped for. It had a well documented history of cost over-runs, problems in development, and failing the way all multi-tools do, they generally don’t do as good of a job as specific tool

Your views hew ridiculously close to talking point that heavily associated with Russian state media. Please don't be offended, this isn't an insult It's an FYI.

Ask yourself: how does the F-35 (in cost overruns, accidents, re-designs, ect..) compare to other fighter jets developed by the US and her allies? If you don't know, wonder how you only bumped into info that paints the project in a bad light. Who benefits from the F35 being perceived as a boondoggle?

Youtuber Lazerpig addresses all of this directly and with sources if your interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxVsS9ZNUOU

[-] SnotFlickerman 19 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Thanks for the heads up, but yeah, my opinions of this were developed during the Bush era and it was from US media sources discussing the issues with the F-35's development. I honestly hadn't thought about the F-35 in years and had to go to Wikipedia to make sure I was thinking of the right plane. I'm generally anti-war so I thought it was pretty wasteful in general at the time.

[-] yesman@lemmy.world 15 points 1 week ago

during the Bush era and it was from US media sources

Your being defensive. Yes, the misinfo campaign is that old, and yes plenty of Western journalists have repeated the talking points.

[-] SnotFlickerman 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I'm literally just a cancer patient in the states, but go off bud. I'm not being defensive, I'm telling you my experience. I'm not disputing the possibility that a disinformation campaign went on that long. But cool cool, your original message was kind, but this is being a jerk. Not everyone can know everything and you can take what people tell you about their experiences or you can say they're "being defensive" for admitting they hadn't actually thought about it in years.

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[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 22 points 1 week ago

it's a superior replacement to about any other plane (with single exception of F-22 for air dominance, but it's not made now anyway) absolute state of the art apex predator in air, and scale of procurement brings costs down

there is a reason why no one makes single-purpose planes anymore and it's degree of flexibility multirole allows, simplified logistics, less number of airframes needed for mission and a couple others. drones are very narrow purpose tools with short range relying on unjammed radio spectrum, or else extremely specialized long range heavier systems available only in small numbers. these things are replacement of ATGMs and cruise missiles, not aircraft. these things don't even come close to each other

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[-] NIB@lemmy.world 19 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yes, the F-35 is so bad that literally every single allied country is ordering and is willing to wait for like 5+ years just to receive it. It is the best selling aircraft out there, with insane capabilities for its price. America cant produce these things fast enough.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#Operators

More than 20 allied countries have bought/ordered it and in significant numbers. It is going to be the future backbone of the airforce of most of those countries. Just because it had issues, doesnt mean that it isnt good or that many of its serious issues havent been resolved.

Also the F-35 has built-in networking and infrastructure to work as a mothership for "drones" or other remote controlled/ai platforms.

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[-] sepi@piefed.social 13 points 1 week ago

The F-35 is so bad that it was used to destroy almost all iranian air defense with impunity. Elon is such a dumbass

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[-] OutlierBlue@lemmy.ca 19 points 1 week ago

Count down until Musk throws a hissy-fit and calls Paul Livingston a "pedo".

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 1 week ago

maybe he lost interest in F-35 because its first flight was 18 years ago

[-] weew@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

On one hand, unmanned airplanes (drones or remote controlled) will outfly anything with a human on board, because humans are generally the weakest part of the plane. No human = no cockpit or life support, no hatch, no windows, no ejection seats, etc. An equivalent drone plane will be lighter, more structurally sound, and can maneuver at g-forces that will kill a human pilot.

That's the hardware side of things, of course.

The software and information security is definitely not there yet... But I'm sure Elon thinks it'll be ready "next year" just like Full Self Driving...

[-] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago

Every word out of elons mouth is complete and utter bs.

[-] perestroika@lemm.ee 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It's expensive, sure.

In some cases, it has no use. In a small Eastern European country, it makes more sense to buy drones, artillery and air defense. If the possible opponent is right next to you, an airfield hosting the F-35 would simply be smashed with ballistic missiles, leaving the fighter homeless. The same money in the form of other items would serve one better.

Far over the ocean, far in the rear - different things make sense. Projecting force quickly to a big distance or intredicting an opponent that does that - requires fighter jets.

For a country whose threat model involves supersonic bombers launching hypersonic missiles at its navy or shipping or coastline from beyond air defense range - that cannot be solved with today's drones, but can be solved with F-35: "intercept the bombers before they launch anything, destroy their airfields". Drones cannot currently stop a stealth fighter, or even stop an ordinary fighter: it will outrun them and possibly run circles around them.

Drones of the future? Could take any form. Maybe some day, the F-35 is indeed a mobile command post in the sky and drones do the hard job. But not currently.

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[-] thann@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 week ago

"We made waaaay too much money off that jet to be idiots!"

[-] supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I mean everybody is right by accident some of the time..

I love libs defending the f35 like the good warhawks they pretend to not to be.

Yes the f35 is a good fighter jet, if you ignore THAT IT COST 1.7 TRILLION and completely forget about the concept of lost opportunity cost.

Lol downvote me you fools the f35 was set in stone as strategic catastrophe before it ever entered combat by virtue of destroying an incomprehensible amount of our shared wealth. The f35 is a tool of the military industrial complex designed to suck up as much cash as possible, the functionality of the plane is a distant concern in practice which explains why it barely works even given the obscene amount of money spent on it.

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago

F-15s cost 55-100 million depending on make and year. The F-35 is on the high end of that at 80-100 million but it is not outside the range of what we pay for aircraft. Furthermore Boeing's Eagle upgrade the EX is actually more expensive than the F-35.

The only other option was to keep buying legacy aircraft. Which might work with Russia but the Chinese are actually figuring some stuff out.

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[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 week ago

Please explain how the cost overruns on the development program have any bearing on the effectiveness of the finished product?

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[-] demizerone@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

Elon thinks bcz he's rich the defense contractors can't get him? Michael Hastings got ended bcz he talked a little too much about a general.

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this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2024
300 points (100.0% liked)

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