I work at a pet store. I monitor anyone that looks between 12 and 18 closely. If I don't, without fail they're always the ones swatting at our animals for a laugh. Why, by Neptune's briny piss, would I treat them with the respect that 9/10 times they don't show to anyone else?
I remember my thoughts and feelings at 15, when I had no responsibilities, no understanding of how the world works, no awareness of my own flaws, and yet I knew everything. It was a blissful existence.
I remember being 15 and I had severe tooth pain and my parents refused to take me to a dentist for a year straight because teeagers are just whiny and dramatic. I ended up having four teeth removed. Lol
I'm sad that so many people had such a shit time being 15.
I had a great time being 15. Back then I couldn’t even fathom being twenty, it felt like being old and I was never getting old (or so my 15yo self thought)
This kind of thing resonates with me and then I check the comments and it's just people being like "god young people are so STUPID lol" and it hurts a bit!
Nah, I was a shitter at 15. I know now that the thoughts and feelings I had held no real water and I was just an idiot. Now, with everything I've learned and experienced, I would absolutely tell my 15 year old self to sit down and stfu.
Counterpoint: grow up and learn to say no to your 15 year old self. "I'm just a kid and life is a nightmare!" is only a waypoint on the path to maturity, and immaturity is poorly disguised by pleas to "please somebody think of the children!" Children are welcome to have all their own thoughts and feelings, but having thoughts and feelings doesn't entitle or qualify anybody to amplify them into leadership and policy.
15 year olds are idiots. But like so are my coworkers. The difference is that 15 year olds have an excuse and might learn from their fuck ups.
Pretty much this. I've always tried to treat kids like dumb lil adults, but with more potential!
If you have to try not to forget that you're probably already a cunt. Having open eyes is enough.
Man... The amount of comments saying that kids are dumb at fifteen and I didn't know what I was doing at fifteen are all falsely equating respect with success and knowledge. Kids literally don't know what their doing because they are figuring it out. They're not dumb, they have a lot to learn. And most want to.
Kids need respect for being who they are. You give most kids real respect and watch them do everything they can to live up to it. They need real connection and mentors. When you give high support then you can set high expectations.
Kids need respect
no, kids need understanding. respect is earned. the difference between the two is trust.
Respect is granted for just being human. That can be erode if they violate core social norms, but when respect is given trust is given back. They then give the effort that results in learning.
respect for life is not respect for the individual.
trust must exist before respect is given. let me give you an example.
a cop pulls you over, you were not breaking any laws that you were aware of. the officer walks up and asks you if you know why you were pulled over. you tell him no and he proceeds to tell you that you were speeding.
you know this was a lie since you had speed control on.
did you respect the officer before or after he pulled you over?
did your level of respect change before or after he lied to you?
in my case, I never respected the officer. I understand that he's doing a job and will help however I can. However, after he lies to me I could never trust him, thus I could never respect him.
my point is, In order for respect to exist, trust must be present first. I don't trust strangers, even if they're in positions of public trust.
You are right though. Respect and trust correlate to each other and fortify each other. The more trust you have in someone, the more respect you have for them, the more respect you have for someone, the more trust you have in them.
I can still trust somebody, but I can still not respect them. that relationship cannot be flipped around.
Teenagers are in development of becoming an individual. They may have personalities, but they haven't tempered them for society yet. That tempering process is through human connections. I'd argue the best outcomes come through respect, patient connections with adults who demonstrate composure and allow them to grow that composure.
I don't know what you're suggesting other than with holding respect.
Teenagers are in development of becoming an individual. They may behave personalities, but they haven't tempered them for society yet.
that's exactly my point. I understand they have to be tempered by society. Once they have achieved this level of tempering it's respectable for the amount of effort they put in. some people though, never get through that tempering and I cannot respect them. I understand they may have social anxiety or some other reason, but I can't trust them like others that have so I can't respect them like others. there are other ways to respect though.
I'd argue the best outcomes come through respect, patient connections with adults who demonstrate composure and allow them to grow that composure.
IMO that's not respect, thats understanding. If you respected them, you would at least seem them as equals to yourself and treat them as an equal. You understand they aren't at the same level as yourself and give them some leeway to "feel it out" and find their own path. this includes supporting them when they make mistakes or explaining how to avoid the mistakes in the future.
I don't know what you're suggesting other than with holding respect.
respect is a gift given from one individual to another. it signifies the trust one has in the other. A child respects a parent because they trust the parent. when the trust is broken, the respect dies with it. infact, respect of an adult is important to the development of a young mind and is a mechanism used to emulate the adult. if you respect someone, you might want to try being like them, even when you're an adult.
so in short, I disagree that respect should be given automatically. It's earned through nurturing relationships and built on trust.
Once they have achieved this level of tempering it’s respectable for the amount of effort they put in.
that’s not respect, thats understanding. If you respected them, you would at least seem them as equals to yourself
I think the desire to be in society and tempered by it is respectable. It's not a binary that is separated by a hurdle. Because I am an adult, I have understanding of where they are in their journey of being socialized as an adult. I respect the effort they have made, the understanding they've developed, and the progress they've achieved. I don't confuse them with being an adult. But I nurture that desire to be an adult through connection and mentorship if that is available.
I can’t trust them like others that have so I can’t respect them like others. there are other ways to respect though.
I don't trust them like others. I trust them for where they are. I respect them for who they are and where they are. As you said, there are other ways to respect. That is what I've chosen. Another way.
respect is a gift given from one individual to another. it signifies the trust one has in the other.
I agree that respect is a gift given. Gifts aren't earned. They are not transactions. It says, "I see you." Because I have developed eyes to see others, I can give that gift. I can give them space in my self for them to stretch and grow into whomever they are. Some of who they become is chosen, but some is set. I can see this. This is respect. "I see you again." And as they grow into that person, they turn towards me and ask, "Do you see me?" and I can answer "I see you again and again."
They can never emulate me because there is a part of me that will always be unreachable and unknown to them because they are not me. They can try to be like me and they the best success is if they are exactly like themselves in the process of being like me. An authentic self can emerge. I extend respect in hopes that they become themselves.
I don't respect cops to begin with. If I didn't know they were a cop then I would respect them.
because you don't trust them, right?
I do not
You talk like all the adults that made life hell when I was 15. If anyone has to "earn" respect, it's adults who forgot what it's like to live under someone else's thumb.
you talk like a petulant child that was never pushed to achieve more than you thought you were capable of.
how's that feel?
I remember every moment of my life. I remember being 10 months old laying in my crib smelling the herb garden out the window. I remember my parents never showing up to any of my school events. I remember the way the belt across my back and thighs felt when my father got home from a "hard day". I remember spending the weekend in jail because I was doing something my father made me do.
fuck you, asshole.
I never earned respect from them while they were alive. I didn't even get any understanding from them. I only got yelled at, hit, and verbally abused when they felt they were losing control of their own life. respect is earned through proving you can be trusted with mature tasks. understanding should be given. understanding that a child may know to take out the trash but not know the importance of it. this makes it difficult for them to prioritize and objectively complete goals.
children need understanding from adults, to provide guidance that allows them to grow on their own power and lean on when they need support.
next time you want to attack someone based on who they are, take the entitled prick out of your mouth before you speak, asshole.
I never earned respect from them while they were alive
You shouldn't have had to. They should have loved and respected you unconditionally.
Bet, I think that's a really good point and a crucial reminder for some people.
I am gonna need 15 year olds to be 33% less annoying, though, in return. I mean, I was incredibly annoying at 15 and I get it's hard not to be but goddamn meet me part way here
I used to work with a lot of teens at their first job, and I found that I got along with them really well when I'd tell them that the biggest difference between them and me was simply that I'd been on this rock a few years longer than they have. If you're 20 and they're 15, then you've experienced 33% more shit than they have.
I told them that I wasn't gonna tell them what to do with their lives, but I'd offer my own experiences to help them make more informed choices. It's like with little kids: you can tell them not to do something dangerous, but if you explain why they shouldn't do it, you'll get better results. At least with the 15+ crowd, you usually don't have to worry about them sticking forks into the electrical sockets or something.
I don't think I started sticking metal into electrical outlets until I was 14 or 15..
Bzzzzzaaaap
I thought like this when I was 15.
Then in my twenties looking back at how I acted when I was a teen I thought "I was really dumb as a kid, I wish I had more supervision from a responsible adult."
Now in my thirties looking back at how I acted when I was in my twenties I think "I was really dumb as a kid, I wish I had more supervision from a responsible adult."
Kids today deserve the option to delete everything about the from the Internet at some point in their 20s. No one needs video evidence of that phase.
No photos should be the default until they turn twenty. It's too easy to fuck up or be taken advantage of.
being dumb and worthy of respect are not mutually exclusive.
Supervision doesn't have to be patronizing or demeaning. A 15 year-old isn't dumb anymore, merely ignorant and impulsive which does tend to make them shitheads but that's kind of a separate problem.
Most adults are shockingly bad at understanding and explaining their own thoughts and rationales, including to other adults. So when interacting with a teenager, they either throw their hands up or fall back on "shut up and do as I say" as one would with a 5 year-old.
That's where teens can be failed really badly by the adults around them because they are at an age where unlike children they are mostly/fully equipped to understand "adult" advice, and will not blindly follow orders anymore. But they also need way more advice, guidance and explanation than an actual adult. I think that's where the post is getting at. Don't forget that teens are kids, but don't treat them like they are subhuman or lacking in agency.
Was that supposed to stop after 15?
Because as a woman-type creature, born and raised, that has been the whole life experience so far…
And I’m more than twice that age now..
Having a baby face+being short will also do that to ya. Like, brother, we are the same damn age, why are you treating me like a child
Man I bet, that shit is rough. I’m also super short (two standard deviations below average for my a/s/l) and it just never stops being a thing.
I’m actually thankful for all my gray hair so people stop treating me like a goddamned child. The gray has its own drawbacks ofc, but I don’t care anymore, just don’t treat me like a kid.
So. I was raised by a domestic violence lawyer. She was always really passionate about her job, about fighting abuse.
When I was in middle school, I was abused myself. A teacher. I knew what was happening. I knew what they said to do about - tell a trusted adult. They would know what to do.
My mother, the domestic violence lawyer, always so passionate about stopping abuse. She didn't believe me. I was just a dumb kid, and kids make things up all the time.
I realized there's not much a kid can do to protect themself. "Tell a trusted adult" is the solution, not because adults are more responsible, but because they actually have fucking rights. If an adult has a bad job, they can get up and quit. If I tried to walk away from school, I'd be beaten.
None of the adults wanted to listen to me, so what could I do? Jack fucking shit. I had that teacher for three years until I moved on to high school. I still have the trauma.
Treat kids like people. I don't want to hear any of this shit about how stupid they are. They know more about their own life experience than you do. Listen to them
Dude... That's so depressing to read, I'm so sorry. I'm sure it wouldn't help, and I'm pretty certain I can guess the answer, but did you ever tell your mum when you were older? Are you still in contact with her? Can't blame you if you're not, I probably would go NC myself.
I get compliments on my kids behavior so often. People beg me for my secrets. It's simple. I have treated them with respect as an individual person since day one. We only use our words to communicate and we never raise our voices. We apologize when we make mistakes and make it right. We talk about our feelings and work towards compromise. All these rules apply to kids and adults equally.
I grew up with spankings and being told "I'll give you something to cry about if you don't shape up" and "just do as you're told, no questions". I won't repeat those behaviors.
People are always surprised in a good way when kids like me so much and quickly.
It is not hard, I just treat them like a real person, I respect them and actively listen to them.
Kids are so much smarter than people give them credit for and it is not hard to do.
I remember. And what it taught me is that in the eyes of society at large I wasn't a real person until I was 21. It also taught me that society may PUNISH adults who try to treat people under 21 as though they're real human beings. You see, that's (not really) "GROOMING". Also, in any case other than violent criminality, any action a human being takes under the age of 18 is attributable to their guardians, "because they don't understand what they were doing". But the acts of violent criminality? Tried as an adult "because they clearly had to have understood what they were doing".
Look. I hate it, but: we treat children like second class citizens, like pets, like slaves, because it's dangerous to do otherwise. Children are a fucking minefield of legal grey areas and drastically accelerated consequences. The shit you and I live through on a daily basis gets brushed off as "that's just life" but if it happens to a fifteen year old "ARE YOU CRAZY THEY'RE ONLY A CHILD". And I'm not so sure I'd be able to meaningfully or successfully argue against that if I ever found myself in a position where I'm found culpable for someone of that age group.
Gods help me I think I'd rather die than have children of my own, but if I ever did, I'd have to be honest with them about all the terrible features of the society in which we live:
"To me you're a person, and if you ask anyone else you're a person, but if the shit ever went down the law would treat you as though you are a pet. I want you to feel secure in your privacy, in your autonomy, in your possession of material objects, but if anything happens that forces the law to cast its glaring gaze upon our lives they have the power to take everything from both of us.
"It is NOT your fault, but nevertheless we are both hostages until you are emancipated either by the clock running out or by legal declaration. I tell you this not to demoralized you but to prepare you. I do not want you to roll over; I would hope that you might find some way instead to steal your resolve. But the fact is, the society in which we live creates a toxic power dynamic between us. They stand above us, point at me, and command that I must be an adversary to you lest THEY need to step in and become your adversary, and they will be much more painful to deal with than me. This world is a prison and has forced upon me the role as YOUR warden, and if I fail to perform that role to the satisfaction of the authorities, they WILL punish us both.
"I need you to be vigilant. I need you to take care around me. I need you to minimize our household's exposure to liability. But as long as you do that, I will endeavor to stay out of your business. As long as I am not provided a motive upon which I am forced to act, I would like to never have to go into your room or go through your personal effects. I need plausible deniability so that I do not haver to LIE at a jury trial when a judge turns to me and asks 'and you knowingly let this happen under your own roof?' - and even then it's almost equally damning if the legal system has any excuse to accuse of me 'you didn't know this was happening right under your nose!'. But until or unless our camouflage is compromised, I will ensure that you have access to shelter, sustenance, privacy, and dignity."
And if your reaction to the prospect of admitting all this to "just a child" is revulsion and dread... THAT very reaction is why we don't treat children like people.
Yeah, this is the first I've seen someone else weirded out by the constant push to up the age you're considered a 'real adult'. I've seen people arguing for the age of consent to be set to 25 and treating people in their 20's like they were 12 year olds.
Like I'm not arguing that old men dating young women isn't gross, but that doesn't make those young women in their 20's children. There's this dehumanizing element to the conversation that's really concerning to me, but the whole sexual abuse aspect of it overshadows the extremely troubling language they're using, so you can't address it.
You can acknowledge inherent power imbalances without resorting to treating the younger party like a kid.
And what it taught me is that in the eyes of society at large I wasn't a real person until I was 21. It also taught me that society may PUNISH adults who try to treat people under 21 as though they're real human beings. You see, that's (not really) "GROOMING".
🚩
Grooming has a pretty widely understood meaning. If you believe you've been incorrectly accused of that please take a moment to reflect on why that might be.
Edit: it's been pointed out to me the "groomer" has be co-opted (cynically I'd say deliberately)
Grooming has a pretty widely understood meaning. If you believe you've been incorrectly accused of that please take a moment to reflect on why that might be.
You're being a bit overdramatic with that red flag.
It might be because they suggested that kids ought to be allowed to walk down the street without a chaperone.
Or because they were caught having a perfectly normal conversation with a minor they don't know. Not about anything remotely sexual, just talking to them at all.
It might also be because they're gay. Or trans. Or a drag queen. Or tried to keep books on any of those groups from being banned from the library. Or admitted in the classroom that any of them even exist.
Grooming used to have a widely agreed upon meaning. These days (in the US at least) it's more often used as a political term to demean and other whoever the right wing doesn't like.
It might also be because they're gay. Or trans. Or a drag queen.
Ah fuck, you're right, I didn't consider that.
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