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[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 22 points 1 day ago

I mean, yeah, this guy is wrong for thinking Trump will keep us out of wars, and the idea that you would vote for someone you think it like Hitler to stop new wars is both contradictory and morally reprehensible. But I've heard this take before (well, except the Hitler part, that's bat-shit insane) and it might be worth reflecting why a lot of the electorate no longer sees the Democratic party as the anti-war party. That's a big shift that's occurred in my lifetime, and it's worth examining.

[-] aesthelete@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

But I’ve heard this take before (well, except the Hitler part, that’s bat-shit insane) and it might be worth reflecting why a lot of the electorate no longer sees the Democratic party as the anti-war party. That’s a big shift that’s occurred in my lifetime, and it’s worth examining.

Because they're idiots?

Every major war started in my lifetime (including the "war on drugs") was started by Republicans.

The Democratic party is the party of complacency, I'll grant them that, and we were in wars for several administrations that Republicans started. So it's hard for their donkey brains to remember when and why the wars started and when they ended. A lot of people think that Obama was in office when 9/11 happened. The country is full of idiots.

[-] Snowclone@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

I think you can't approch it from a party line issue. People want to see it in fact as action for the candidates, and at least right now Biden dropped the ball on Isreal badly. He should have put harsh levers on Isreal to get them out of Gaza quickly, Ukraine is a more complicated problem, but the US should focus more on ending conflicts quickly rather than let them drag on forever. But that takes real policy and leadership.

[-] aesthelete@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Neither war is happening on US soil (or between the US and any country involved) and the US and Israel have had an alliance -- which will remained unchanged if not strengthened in the Trump-Vance administration -- spanning decades. In addition, Congress allocates funds to send to other countries and the President executes the orders he is given. Biden could've vetoed the aid bills I suppose, but there is a good chance that they would've overridden his veto. He could've impounded the funds, but I'm not really sure how strictly-speaking legal that even is, and Democratic administrations face pressure from both sides to follow norms (i.e. I wouldn't be surprised if Biden's own party members would've impeached and removed him given just cause for doing so).

But, as per usual, people like yourself expect the impossible (world peace) under Democratic administrations and yet many of them will turn around and think any war that Trump starts is fully justified and support it bigly until the next Democrat (if there is one) gets in there.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago

In addition, Congress allocates funds to send to other countries and the President executes the orders he is given. Biden could’ve vetoed the aid bills I suppose

Biden literally bypassed congress to send more aid than what they had approved multiple times.

I hate the way liberals just shamelessly lie about this stuff, you don't even have the excuse of the election anymore.

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[-] Snowclone@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

It's because they aren't. Clinton and Gore were 100% interventionist, and had no issues with preemptive war, some accused Clinton of starting a war to boost his popularity. Kerry was anti war historically, but pragmatic on Iraq, Hillary again with Bill not at all anti war-->

[-] Snowclone@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago

Obama's military adittude was ''a Democrat can't say no to the military'' and allowed whatever the joint chiefs wanted, which is never going to be anti war. And Biden was the same. Harris clearly not anti war either. Trump says he is, and that's more anti war than any Dem in my lifetime. Can he effectively govern for war reduction? No. He's an idiot, and liar. But he's selling it.

[-] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 day ago

Being "pragmatic on Iraq" turned off a lot of the left. Ralph Nader's running mate, Peter Camejo, remarked at the time "Kerry isn't Bush Lite. He's Bush Smart! We do not need a smarter Bush!" Apparently the electorate agreed, because W. Bush went on to win a second term.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Hillary again with Bill not at all anti war–>

Directly responsible for escalation in Libya, as Sec State, and the deaths of tens of thousands as a result.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

it might be worth reflecting why a lot of the electorate no longer sees the Democratic party as the anti-war party

The only reflection I am able to accomplish is to look at the GOP and say "Worse, tho".

If you aren't voting for the lesser evil, I have to assume you hate America and want it to fail. And that's worse than genocide.

[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

The only reflection I am able to accomplish is to look at the GOP and say "Worse, tho".

OK, but so far, that hasn't been a very effective electoral strategy. I think we should try something else.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

It doesn't need to be effective, because the pendulum of politics always swings back in the end. Trump will become the next scapegoat of American politics just like he was back in 2018 and then 2020. If the economy tops itself (as is increasingly likely), they'll be facing even bigger headwinds. Even if it doesn't, inflation and sky high rents aren't going away. Consumer debt isn't getting any lighter. The Trump Admin isn't going to be nice to people.

That's the electoral strategy at the end of the day. Just to keep being the Other Option and wait for people to come around. Wait as long as it takes. Maybe it'll take twenty years, like in Arizona. Maybe forty years, like in Georgia. Maybe it'll be over 60, like in Utah. Doesn't matter. Just keep squatting on the Other Option until the day comes.

[-] pjwestin@lemmy.world 1 points 19 hours ago

It seems like having policies that make people want to vote for Democrats would deliver more immediate and lasting results than allowing American conditions to continue deteriorating and hoping our opponents receive the blame.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 points 18 hours ago

Dems have to deliver on those policies when given the opportunity. If all they can deliver are excuses, they won't have a base that trusts them.

Go down to Mexico and see how this is done. AMLO and Sheinbaum have been on a historic electoral tear, in large part because they've been so effective at delivering their reforms. They're crazy popular right now.

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[-] jaemo@sh.itjust.works 15 points 2 days ago

Done went from being the guy we'd kill if we had a time machine to the guy we voted for in less than a decade. Pretty impressive trick.

[-] teamevil@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago
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[-] Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee 74 points 2 days ago

In times past, I was fascinated by Hitler and WW2. It was a lifelong obsession that I had since childhood. But ever since the Trump era started it started to wane due to the fact that WW2 and Hitler just didn't seem so distant anymore... the world felt like a repeat of what was happening in those days and looking up facts felt, in part, like learning more to understand what is happening now instead of about history.

But if there is something that I need to point out is that Hitler was a SHIT leader. Germans and Germany ever since the Kaiser era were portrayed as hyperefficient and militaristic, and people then claim the Nazis were the same. They weren't. Nazi bureaucracy was bullshit and most of their economic growth was based on plunder (initially from German Jews and other marginalized groups and later from other countries) and almost purely military build up. Germany actually lagged behind in technological build-up to most countries, despite the stereotypes of the Wunderwaffen of WW2 (Fritz-X bomb, the ME-262, etc), and industrially as any technology that didn't have a direct military benefit was discarded. They didn't even have any proper anti-biotics during the war!

Even agriculture was fucked by the Germans. Despite the romanticization of the German peasantry and the countryside by the Nazis, they could not sustain their population at all. Most German food was imported, and they were preparing their population for harsh wartime rationing even before the war started. They fed their population almost entirely on stolen food from Poland, France, the Netherlands, and Ukraine. Also by killing a lot of people in the death camps they saved on food that way as well.

People stereotype communist countries as having no food when they don't realize that fascist nations just can't feed their own folk. Nazi Germany wasn't alone in having serious food problems. Imperial Japan couldn't feed its own population and would have had widespread hunger if they didn't start plundering China during the war.

Hitler lead Germans and Germany into death and destruction and misery and mayhem. He did nothing good for Germany. None at all. Even towards the end of the war he would have been OK with the German people being genocided since if they were defeated by the barbarian orc-like Soviets and the mongrel Americans they were not the master race he thought they were and they deserved to die. There is a reason why he is remembered as one of the world's greatest monsters.

[-] teamevil@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

I remember in 2016 thinking how similar Trump was to Hitler and rhetoric and everything. I was written off is basically being nothing but hyperbole and physical form unfortunately I wasn't wrong which sucks

[-] whydudothatdrcrane@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 days ago

I see where you're coming from. Perhaps not as obsessed, but I always had a historical interest in the era until it became an alarming parallel to present day news. Most people do not know much about what went down in the pre-war period. They just have knee-jerk reactions to it. "Traditional values" were trending at the time, Nazism was marketed as the modern, cool choice. Education, administration and even scouting and chess clubs were Nazified at the time. I see it with the freaking MAGA hat everywhere nowadays. I just see it and say, fuck this is some Nazi Germany shit. To me now there are two kinds of people, those who see it, and those who don't. People are so precious thinking that Germans went nuts with the mass murder shit and elected this guy, but themselves have been on the exact same track as Nazi Germany for years: idolizing a dangerous man without ever questioning him. Soon they will have no excuse either, only collective guilt. Some of us won't be here to see it though, for one reason or another. I have pointed this out in my other comment: once fascists get hold of the state apparatus, there is no horror we can put past them.

[-] shneancy@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

i think it's at least in part because we have always been taught to see Hitler as a monster instead of a person. We dehumanised him and the entire nazi party so much for many it sounds like a myth instead of history, the take away seems simple - just don't be a monster.

The lesson was - some people are born evil

Instead of - anybody can fall the wrong path and find themselves committing atrocities. Even your friends, even your family, even you

i've been saying this for a long time - Hitler wasn't a monster, he was human just like you and me, and that's a hundred times more terryfing

[-] whydudothatdrcrane@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 day ago

Indeed, dehumanization of the Nazis made most people think they are immune both to similar propaganda and similar atrocities. They think that Hitler advertised the Holocaust to be elected. It was a war time state secret (although there was the "Hitler's Prophecy" but no-one took it at face value).

Hitler regime rose to power with the now familiar rhetoric: traditional values, family, order, capitalism, down with the trans degenerates, beat up leftists they poison the blood of our country.

That is why Trump goes out so easily saying "Hitler mught have said that but in a very different way". He didn't. It was the same fucking way.

Having said that, consider how the "abstractio ad Hitlerum" advertized as a fallacy actually enabled, eventually, Trump to get away with Hitler shit, just by saying it is a fucking fallacy. (I think this is in turn called the "Fallacy fallacy") This timeline is history repeating itself as a farce, exactly as Marx predicted.

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[-] flango@lemmy.eco.br 20 points 2 days ago
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[-] Sp00kyB00k@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago

Maybe, even if they hate him. Know he is bad. The one takeway is that they liked Kamala even less. It is combination of desperation and despise. If the Dems don't learn from this, they will repeat the same mistakes over and over. Pick someone likeable

[-] edg@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

No matter who Democrats pick they will always be painted as unlikeable, losers, and evil by Republicans. If you think picking a "likeable" candidate is the trick then you too have fallen for the endless Republican framing trap.

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[-] Disgracefulone@discuss.online 10 points 2 days ago

Maybe he just meant all the good qualities of Hitler. Like the ones he used to get away with his evil fucking mass murder for so long.

[-] thatKamGuy@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 days ago

Say what you will about that Hitler guy - but at least he did do a good thing or two, like killing Hitler!

[-] Gammelfisch@lemmy.world 14 points 2 days ago

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot...I call BS on Wolfson's reasoning. The bastard is most likely a neo-Nazi shitbag and knew exactly what he wants out Putin's Sock Puppet.

[-] HawlSera@lemm.ee 62 points 2 days ago

Ya know.... if I thought someone was literally Hitler, the last thing I'm gonna fucking do is help them literally have control of... everything.

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this post was submitted on 12 Nov 2024
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