Any chance you are autistic? I ask because, along with confusion about social constructs, we also tend to show confusion about gender constructs.
Yes I am!
High five.
It might be helpful to separate things like your interests and hobbies, social presentation (how you dress or speak), sexual preferences etc. from your consideration of your own gender identity. All those things are unrelated to defining someone's gender identity itself. For example, really liking pink is not an indication of a female identity, boys can like pink as well.
Your gender identity has to do with the relationship to your own body in the context of male and female physical characteristics we humans have. Some people are mismatched to one degree or another.
Many people get confused because they see gender roles and expression as being the same as gender identity, when the latter two things are just social constructs, but our actual identity is something that manifests from our neurology, outside any kind of social context. Consider who you'd want to be if you lived alone in the forest or on an island and had never learned all the social stuff we're raised with. That will get you closer to what your identity is in a clearer way.
I'm gonna have to disagree on presentation and orientation being unrelated to gender. Not only do those things influence each other, but one's presentation (which includes more than how you dress) and orientation can be one's gender. Think of people who use butch, femme, bear, etc as their genders, or people who are arogender.
This limited view of "gender, presentation and orientation are different" only work to explain cishet people that a gay man isn't less of a man for liking men. But it cannot and should not stop us from seeing how for many queer people not being straight/cishet affects the way they relate (or not) with the binary system, that there are gay men that see their manhood as influenced by their gayness, thus different from binary straight manhood.
I think they were just stating that identity and expression are two separate axes and that someone can present to the world as a woman but internally feel that they are a man. Similarly there are people who appear butch and people who feel butch and those two don't always overlap. In fact, all of the labels you described here (butch, femme, bear) are all distinct gender expressions, although some of these labels largely overlap with sexuality labels as well, none of them invalidate or have to overlap with gender identity. I know a girl (identity) who is almost always read as bear (expression), for example.
there are gay men that see their manhood as influenced by their gayness, thus different from binary straight manhood.
This can internally shape their perception of their gender as well as externally shape their presentation. I think it's good to point these out and to celebrate the massive diversity of expression!
Yeah, I wasn't saying that those things cannot be separated, just that they aren't necessarily.
The label a person uses to describe their gender can be influenced by their presentation, orientation, or the gender roles they want to perform. Someone who says they're certain gender because they (want to) perform the gender roles associated to that gender isn't necessarily confusing concepts.
The human gender and attraction experience is so complex that it cannot be put into strict boxes that never mix.
In fact, all of the labels you described here (butch, femme, bear) are all distinct expressions of gender identity, although some of these labels largely overlap with sexuality labels as well, none of them invalidate or have to overlap with gender identity.
My point was that all these labels, apart from being presentations and queer dynamics/roles, are also genders for many people.
Some people are Butch [gender], where butch refers to their expression; other people are butch, and only butch, where butch itself is their gender.
Figuring out gender is hard. Picking a specific label isn't the most important thing, it's fine to use umbrella terms like "questioning", "queer", "gender nonconforming", or "non-binary" while you figure it out (or even as a permanent label if you don't feel a need to describe your gender specifically).
I would recommend the book My Gender Workbook by Kate Bornstein, I found the exercises in it to be very helpful for examining how I felt about my gender.
I'll try check it out. Can you resend the image tho? I think I'll stick with demiboy for now
This should work
Thank you!, wait nb people are trans?
@sleepybisexual @the_artic_one Some are, some aren't. It honestly varies from person to person and how they conceptualize being NB (since it's a fairly large category that often intersects with other gender/sexuality concepts and identities).
That's more of a semantic disagreement with how you define "trans". If you use the definition "anyone who identifies with a gender other than the one assigned at birth" then all non-binary people are trans.
Not all nonbinary people identify as a gender other than the one they were assigned, though. Some identify with their AGAB, but in a way that's outside the binary.
IMO that's not the gender they were assigned at birth which is strictly binary in Western society but people use all kinds of different definitions for words.
No, I mean it depends on how each nonbinary person see it.
For some people the base gender is the same, or their gender is related/derived from the binary gender they were assigned. These people may not consider themselves trans, but rather cis or any other gender modality.
There's no "IMO that's not the gender they were assigned at birth" when many non-binary people do, in fact, feel they still relate to their AGAB or that their gender and their AGAB are the same or similar.
Just because you define a label one way does not mean that other people have to accept or adopt your label. If a non-binary person doesn't want to identify as trans, do not force that label on them.
Also this statement is coming from a very western perspective. There are more than two genders in the world and there are civilizations which recognize and support genders outside the binary. Some people are not assigned gender at birth in the society they were born in, and in some civilizations their gender does match what was assigned to them by society and that identity is neither male nor female, but something else.
Just because you define a label one way does not mean that other people have to accept or adopt your label. If a non-binary person doesn’t want to identify as trans, do not force that label on them.
Yes, that's why I said "**if ** you use the definition...".
Also this statement is coming from a very western perspective
Yes it is, that's why I clarified the definition the chart was using.
so like presentation does not equal gender or whatevs, but like trying new stuff out can help you understand yourself and what you really want! trying new clothes or makeup, different pronouns. see what sticks. being trans/nb is a pretty wide range of experiences, and its ok if yrs don't match up to others
It feles like I'm faking it like I don't feel nonbinary enough
I don't think I've ever met a single non-binary or trans individual who didn't have impostor syndrome about themselves at some point in their life. If at any point you do not feel binary, you are completely valid to be nonbinary. We don't give out membership cards and we don't test to make sure you're 'nonbinary enough'.
like looking at some of yr other responses in this thread it seems like yr feeling dysphoric? like thats not something that cis people really do.
His am I being dysphoric? I believe you but how?
oh, elsewhere in this thread you said "Not a fan of my body it feels too manly". like thats just describing dysphoria. like gender dysphoria could be described as a sense of discomfort with how, for example, your body looks or is percieved or gendered by others.
So I really am nonbinary? This feeling started a few months after leaving the toxic masculinity cult
I felt like this issue would better be discussed between you and your psychiatrist.
Sometimes there is only so much information you can pass on the internet, it would be very difficult for internet strangers to find out what is really going on.
And yes, it is possible you are non-binary.
If you had to assign adjectives to your gender, which would those be?
They do not have to be gender qualities (masculine, feminine, etc)
Demiboy, other part is either nb or girl
No, I don't mean which labels you use, but rather what adjectives do you associate with your gender.
You say you're confused about your gender, what part confuses you?
I know I'm part not but idk what the other part is
You don't need to label the other part if you aren't sure what is it.
But if you really want to, do you think the second part of your gender could be both girl and NB? Something in-between the two? A girl in a non-binary way? An enby in a girl way?
Have you taken a look at labels like nymgirl, juxera, quella, etc that express a nonbinaryness that is also (in) directly related to girlness?
Haven't seen this other label. The other part is a mix of envy and girl I think
Then, I'll suggest taking a look at labels like xirl or girlby/engirl, that express all possible intersections between been a girl and been non binary. Maybe they could work for the other part of your gender.
Thank you, I'll look into them :3
Sometimes folks benefit from getting down to basics. How is your physical form working for you? Are you at odds with treatment by others re perceived gender?
Not a fan of my body it feels too manly
one thing that helped me (and still does) is ignoring labels and thinking about what you want to do. like, what pronouns do you want, how do you want to dress, what do you want to be called. i found it easier to think about that and instead using that as a guide to finding a label that fits (or skipping the label entirely)
i am agender but still have gender and i don't know either hope ya figure things out
Thank you uwu
I think the confusion is a feature and not a bug 😅 I'm some flavor of enby or trans but I'll be damned if I can figure out what, and I'm in my 40's so I've had time to think about this stuff. Doesn't really bother me though; I am what I am even if I'm not sure what that is, heh.
My running joke is that my gender is three raccoons in a trench coat
Do you want to conform to any gender? If so, why?
What do you think makes one non-binary?
I mean I don't really want to conform to any gender. I mostly present masc but ifmd rather be more androgynous idk what makes people nb
Binary means black or white, zero or one, this or that. So people who are non-binary are those who don't feel like they're fully a man or fully a woman. They might lean more one way than the other, or feel like they have no gender, etc. but an NB can just be anyone who doesn't fit within the gender binary.
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