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submitted 1 day ago by TheOne to c/politics@lemmy.world
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[-] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 56 points 1 day ago

Progressives. Targeting moderates is often viewed as the "mathematically correct" tactic by abstract idiots but doing moderate stuff doesn't yield political wins and leads to apathy.

Democrats have a lot of deactivated voters because of how deeply frustratingly moderate they are that outweigh the centrists they're fighting for - additionally if you start making big policy wins you'll win over all sorts of voters... Just as a fucking reminder Republican voters were more favorable of Sanders than Clinton because he had policy ideas that actually would improve their lives.

American politics is a morass of bullshit - when you offer to cut through that (Obama, Sanders, (bleh) Trump) and deliver real improvements to people's daily lives you win.

[-] orclev@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The problem isn't even moderates it's the out right conservatives in the DNC. Actual progressives in the party are a dying breed these days with the overwhelming majority being moderates and yet somehow the most conservative members are the ones that keep steering the policy decisions. Kamala is a conservative. Biden is a conservative. Tim Walz is barely a moderate. The DNC of today looks like the RNC of the 90s and that's not a good thing. Even Obama was a moderate and he's the most progressive presidential candidate I've seen the DNC run in at least three decades if not more.

[-] MajinBlayze@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The border "crisis" is the perfect example of this: biden's policy on the Mexican border would make w blush.

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[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago

How'd trying to go after moderates work for Hillary. Secure your base first or they'll stay home on election day.

[-] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

How'd trying to go after progressives work for Sanders? The progressive base is not large enough to win a primary, much less the general.

[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

Primaries and general elections are two very different things.

[-] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

A successful candidate needs to win both.

[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago

So Hillary wasn't successful nor was Sanders... If Hillary at least put Sanders as her vp over milk toast, union busting, pro corporate Tim Kaine Democrats could have had a chance.

Milquetoast but your point stands.

[-] stringere@sh.itjust.works 1 points 14 hours ago

It is unfair.

Everyone in the democratic party is milquetoast compared with Sanders.

[-] sorval_the_eeter@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Centrists can win a primary but not a general without progressives. You'd think their high paid strategists would have figured that out. But clearly not.

[-] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

That's true, centrists need progressives to win and progressives need centrists to win.

The question is whether Democrats can more easily win over more centrists or more progressives.

[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

"centrists" in America are far right everywhere else. And if you expect them to go with a more moderate candidate over a more right option is crazy.

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[-] treefrog@lemm.ee 20 points 1 day ago

Progressive voters, moderate donors.

At least, that's the plan.

What happens is you can't appeal to both well.

Let's get oligarchs money out of politics please.

[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It seems to me that most moderates aren’t moderate because they’re passionately committed to a particular set of moderate policies—they’re moderate because they prioritize other qualities (like charisma, enthusiasm, and competence) over ideology. So the most effective way to win them isn’t by adopting a moderate ideology, but by demonstrating you have the non-ideological qualities they actually care about.

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 14 points 1 day ago

Should prioritize progressives, but won't.

[-] TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago

I think progressives tend to overestimate their numbers. Maybe Millennials and Gen z are moving the needle a little further to the left, but I don't think it's as much as many progressives want to believe. There are many millions of Americans under 40 who are moderate, center right, or right wing. The US in general is further right than most other democracies, I would say. In fact, I think the US overall is center to center right. For this reason, I think it is generally a losing strategy for the Democrats to prioritize progressive policies, especially in the presidential election.

Most progressives live in deep blue states; states that are going to go for the Democrats regardless. Whereas, the states that matter, the swing states/purple states are much more moderate. Those are the states the Democrats have to focus on, because of how our election system works. For this reason alone, it makes more sense for Democrats to try and court moderates, at least in the presidential election. But, it's probably true of Congress as well. I think moderate candidates do better in most states and congressional districts than progressive candidates.

It brings me no joy saying this. I'm politically left, I would estimate further left than the majority of Americans. I have been advocating for radical changes for years, but it's mostly fallen on deaf ears, and some of my fellow Americans have been aggressively hostile to the ideas I've been advocating for. Americans, generally, like capitalism, they like class hierarchies, and hierarchies in general, because they believe that some people are just inherently superior to others, and that doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon.

There's a theory called the Overton Window and Dems moving to the center has shifted this whole country to the right. We lost abortion rights because of it and our election integrity and voter access is at risk because of it.

If you want to look at a winning strategy that directly refutes your point look at FDR.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Franklin_D._Roosevelt,_third_and_fourth_terms

[-] barsquid@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago

The Overton window is happening because 1/3 of the country doesn't vote. Repubs are still able to take elections despite a majority of Americans opposing their policies. If it were impossible for the further right party to win, both parties would shift left.

Low voter turnout is a voter access and apathy issue. Disenfranchised voters tend to not vote and that's a platform and outreach issue for the DNC. Low voter access is shit that elected dems should put first and foremost in their agenda once elected, but only Abrams and Sanders have talked about election reform since Carter was president.

[-] orclev@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago

The apathy is directly tied to the DNC pushing conservative and moderate policies instead of progressive ones. When voters see so little difference between the two parties, where neither party is promising the policies they're looking for, then they see no point in showing up at the polls.

This is my understanding of the problem as well. Moderate dems are selling the party to billionaires

[-] barsquid@lemmy.world 9 points 1 day ago

I wish they would prioritize that. It is a bit of a chicken and egg problem currently. Instead we're losing voter protections from a corrupt SCOTUS, so it is becoming harder to vote overall.

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[-] prole 10 points 1 day ago

Democrats are not the party responsible for the massive shift in the Overton Window. They didn't do much to stop it, but they weren't driving it.

They didn't do much to stop it

And what have they done to stop it?

[-] AbidanYre@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Gay marriage, the ACA, the Ledbetter act, more would be better, but they aren't doing nothing.

[-] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

Gay marriage,

Let's not give Congress credit for something that the courts did.

Ah, sorry. I thought you were referring to election reform or presidential messaging. Yes, Dems in Congress have been a slight net positive.

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[-] TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

There's a theory called the Overton Window and Dems moving to the center has shifted this whole country to the right.

I don't agree. I don't think Democrats shifted anything, they were just going where the voters were. Democrats have to win elections and that requires getting people to vote for you. The Democrats didn't shift voters to the right, the voters shifted Democrats to the right.

We lost abortion rights because of it

I think abortion rights are a winning issue for Democrats, but not because it's an exclusively progressive policy. I think abortion rights is a very popular policy among moderates.

If you want to look at a winning strategy that directly refutes your point look at FDR.

I'm talking about where American voters are today, not where they were 80 or 90 years ago, and today I think a majority of Americans are politically moderate.

[-] horse_battery_staple@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Buying power and income disparity are at the same levels they were 80-90 years ago.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2019/4/1/18286084/gilded-age-income-inequality-robber-baron

Americans support "progressive" policy when it's not framed as a political question.

https://time.com/6990721/us-politics-polarization-myth/

Lastly, you think Americans were more progressive on average 90 years ago?

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[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 11 points 1 day ago

Progressives aren't the majority, but there's enough of them that democrats can't win without them.

[-] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Right now, progressives are the ones saying "Democrats have failed and I cannot vote for them" and moderates are the ones saying "I've never voted for Democrats before, but this year I will." This was true even before the Gaza invasion.

When someone tells you their voting intentions, believe them. Unfortunately, Democrats have no choice but to prioritize moderates.

[-] Just_Pizza_Crust@lemmy.world 13 points 1 day ago

If that's the case then there should be no argument from Dems about leftists voting third party in swing states.

[-] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Democrats argue with Trump supporters all the time, I see no reason why third party voters should get a pass. Especially when those two groups have so much in common.

[-] sorval_the_eeter@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Progressive voter intentions are to pressure the Harris campaign to stop the flow of weapons. If she did that she'd have her progressive vote. Progressive leadership climbed in with the Harris campaign early with endorsements. But you'll notice that AOC has had enough of being ignored and is now unloading on Harris. Progressives wont simply blindly support an AIPAC hand puppet like centrists will.

[-] FlowVoid@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Last year, progressives said they could not support Biden because of inflation. Or because of student debt. Or because of the BNSF strike.

It's clear Democrats cannot rely on support from progressives, and for this reason it makes sense for Democrats to try to appeal to moderates. Unlike progressives, moderates seem willing to support Democrats as they are instead of requiring them to be something else.

Um no, laat year progressives were saying the same thing they are today, the Israelis have been bombing Palestine for over a year.

[-] barsquid@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

Those "progressives" you're writing about are children in university who think they are sheltered from the impact of Donald by mommy and daddy's money.

Neither party gives a shit about what any youths say. Young adults (statistically) don't actually show up to vote. 1/3 of the country just doesn't vote.

I wish they did show up to vote at all so that it would make sense for Dems to chase their votes instead of moving further right. It would be cool to be discussing policies that help people instead of arguing about who will do the least amount of genocide.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 11 points 1 day ago

Young adults show up to vote. Not as much as older generations, but they do. They also vote more when their candidate is any good.

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[-] Just_Pizza_Crust@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago

We cannot continue to rely on fear to propel turnout. Fear and anxiety lead to paralysis and electoral withdrawal. Arguing “We’re not going to hurt you like they are” is no longer sufficient.

This has been such a massive failure on the Dems part, especially after seeing the excitement that Tim Waltz was able to generate after joining the race. I can't stand to watch a Kamala rally or speech nowadays because it's nothing but Trump fearmongering, and I don't even know which parts are real worries considering the guy couldn't even build a fucking wall.

It even backfires a bit too, because now I think more about how her office is going to come after our civil liberties. Obama created mass surveillance programs and went after whistleblowers, so what is her office inevitably going to do?

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this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2024
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