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[-] LaLuzDelSol@lemmy.world 203 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Inaccurate statement.

https://qz.com/2113243/forty-percent-of-all-shipping-cargo-consists-of-fossil-fuels

40% of traffic is for petrochemicals, which according to this article is coal, oil, gas, and things derived from them, which would include fertilizer and plastics and probably some other stuff too like industrial lubricants, asphalt etc. Not just fossil fuels, so not all that 40% would be affected by a switch to renewable energy. It's also worth noting that building out renewable energy generation involves shipping a lot of hardware around the globe as well.

[-] shalafi@lemmy.world 33 points 1 month ago

That last sentence, yep. People don't tend to factor in the carbon footprint of building anything they deem environmentally friendly. There's a cost/benefit analysis to be made. A bad idea may actually be worse than what it's replacing, or not beneficial enough to pursue.

[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 43 points 1 month ago

There may be carbon emitted in creating green energy but green energy is ultimately reducing demand for hydrocarbons, which is better than sequestration. Also you need to factor into the operational life of the green tech. If you do, it's pretty clear pretty fast that it's beneficial to go with green energy options. The argument you're making is a common strawman argument for not investing in green energy.

[-] superkret@feddit.org 24 points 1 month ago

For all the things you think of when you hear "renewables", that analysis has already been made, and it's overwhelmingly better in every way to ditch fossil fuels.

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[-] frezik@midwest.social 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

People have done those cost/benefit analysis for solar, wind, and EVs. They come out a pretty clear winner. We don't really need to keep hounding on this while pretending to be smart.

Now E15 gas, OTOH? Utter trash that should go away.

[-] lolola 5 points 1 month ago

Do we know what the percentage is after subtracting out things derived from fossil fuels? I looked at the article and tried to do the math, but it seems like the stats are bundled together.

[-] LaLuzDelSol@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Yeah me too, I couldn't figure it out.

[-] kibiz0r@midwest.social 3 points 1 month ago

We need Hank Green.

[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

localizing and streamlining production is a bigger factor to climate change anyway imo

technology and production should absolutely not be as centralized and wasteful as it currently is.

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[-] Vespair@lemm.ee 73 points 1 month ago

Bro just ignoring all the ships we'll need to carry all that wind and sunlight

[-] dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world 61 points 1 month ago

Another way to look at it: the shipping industry will take a beating while everyone transitions.

If anyone is left wondering why there's so much institutional resistance to changing our energy diet, its institutions like this that are lobbying and generating the propaganda behind it. Energy companies are just one faction.

[-] jdr@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 month ago

Or they'd just ship something else? They'd lose some money and scrap a few ships, but the drop in costs would make it more economical to ship whatever else people want, like lumber and funko pops.

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[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 49 points 1 month ago

If we switched to renewable energy, the cost of coal and oil would crash, but it wouldn't drop to zero. Wealthier countries would stop producing oil locally and shipments would still circle the globe from countries desperate enough to keep producing at lower profits, to countries that cannot affort the more expensive renewable infrastructure.

That's not a reason not to switch. We just need to be prepared for the reality that no single solution will resolve all our problems. Conservatives and energy barons will fight tooth and nail, and will point to the new problems as evidence that we never should have switched. was

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 25 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

countries that cannot affort the more expensive renewable infrastructure

This presumes renewables are more expensive. But I would posit that a rapid adoption of renewables is going to occur as the cost of operating - say - a thorium powered container ship falls below that of its coal equivalents.

What I would be worried about, long term, is the possibility that advanced technologies further monopolize industries within a handful of early adopter countries. That's not an ecological concern so much as a socio-economic concern.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

a thorium powered container ship

If the experience of the NS Savannah is anything to go by, the major hurdle that ship is going to face is Greenpeace etc. fomenting irrational anti-nuclear hysteria until it's banned from so many ports that it'll be too difficult to operate it profitably. I hope I'm wrong and I wish them luck.

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Good luck, they'd have to ban nuclear subs and no nation wants to throw that protection away.

Also fuck Greenpeace and their often more harmful than helpful stunts.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Good luck, they’d have to ban nuclear subs and no nation wants to throw that protection away.

No, that doesn't follow. I'm pretty sure nuclear subs -- or nuclear aircraft carriers, for that matter -- rarely dock at commercial ports, and there's no reason (other than hypocrisy, which is not relevant) that a country can't decide to bar nuclear ships from commercial ports while still allowing them at military naval bases.

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[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 month ago

That and developing countries have been able to adopt some green initiatives, which points to them being at least somewhat affordable

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[-] superkret@feddit.org 6 points 1 month ago

countries that cannot affort the more expensive renewable infrastructure.

Renewables are already cheaper than fossil fuel power.

[-] Trainguyrom@reddthat.com 5 points 1 month ago

Would the price crash or would it stabilize at a much higher price as a specialized commodity where the cost of refining no longer benefits from economies of scale and instead only benefits from buyers who are unable or unwilling to use alternatives?

[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 41 points 1 month ago

Why don't we just have one or two very big ships, powered by nuclear reactors. Like, 40-50 kilometers long each, with hydrofoils, top speed just under mach one. Zip around and deliver everyone's shit with big deck-mounted gauss guns that fire packages right to your doorstep as the ship screams past the nearest coastline.

[-] hakunawazo@lemmy.world 23 points 1 month ago

I see no setting where this could go horribly wrong.

[-] aquafunk@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 1 month ago

Im gonna need some concept art first. for research puposes

[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 21 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Currently seeking angel investors for 500m buy-in, or I'll take a 200kg of plutonium, if you've got that.

[-] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 8 points 1 month ago

Thats exactly how I want my buttplug delivered - shot via a rail gun directly at it's destination.

[-] dessimbelackis@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

What if I live in the geographic center of a continent? How do I know which coastline cannon to order from?

[-] JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 month ago

Depends on prevailing winds.

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[-] BlackAura@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

You have me thinking of like.... A ring around the equator with space elevators on it (with stations at the top), and "rail" tracks, with trains traveling between all the stations. Gaussian launchers sending packages to your nearest delivery depot.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 1 month ago

Believe it or not, that's a feasible (ish) plan for a space elevator we could build right now. Instead of having a counterweight at GEO that's pulling on a carbon nanotube rope, you have a ring spinning inside another ring in LEO. The outer ring could be made of Kevlar, and IIRC, it would take something like a year or two of all current Kevlar production. You then need four stations approximately equidistant apart around the equator to act as counterweights.

The station for the Pacific would itself be quite the engineering challenge. Not a lot of land you can use at the place you need.

[-] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Just anchor one of the garbage patches and use that.

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[-] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 40 points 1 month ago

Fun vaguely related fact: the 1800s are often hailed as the century of steamships, but in reality steamships had pretty short range and required frequent re-coaling in order to get anywhere and back. The coaling stations around the world were mostly stocked by sailing ships since there was no way to economically transport coal by using vessels that burned coal for their propulsion. So it's more accurate to say that the worldwide transportation revolution of the 1800s was a steam/wind power hybrid.

[-] superkret@feddit.org 17 points 1 month ago

No, they wouldn't. Capitalism is driven by supply, not demand.
If by some magic we switched to renewables over night, the owner class would open or expand another market to keep those ships moving.

[-] philpo@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah, that worked totally well for the Guano and sodium nitrate businesses.

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[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago

Oil is used for more than just energy.

[-] bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net 15 points 1 month ago

70% of crude oil ends up gasoline and diesel.

[-] frank@sopuli.xyz 11 points 1 month ago

Idk why you're being downvoted. Petrochemicals are used for a bunch of stuff, including plastics manufacturing.

We should switch to renewables as quickly and completely as we can, but it wouldn't eliminate 100% of oil use

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago

I argue that if oil wasn't as cheap, ecological alternatives to plastic would have a chance or would be considered at all.

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[-] Steve@startrek.website 9 points 1 month ago
[-] RagnarokOnline@programming.dev 5 points 1 month ago

Yo, you right

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[-] rbesfe@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 month ago

High schooler post

[-] scroll_responsibly@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 1 month ago

Bill McKibben is based.

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 month ago

As nice as it would be, a not insignificant amount of coal being transported is destined to steel production. Steel is iron + carbon, and the easiest source of carbon is coal. Steel is pretty important, so that's not going away anytime soon. I wonder if carbon capture could make a product that could be used to replace coal here though, and fairly effectively sequester the carbon in an actually useful form?

[-] 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 1 month ago

What biomass grows the fastest without being waterlogged - I imagine bamboo or sugarcane or something

Grow that, and burn it to make carbon neutral steel; bonus points if you do it in a highrise/underground farm but frankly some medium term reversible environmental damage is preferable to killing off way more with climate change

[-] Phineaz@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago

Eh, purity is a thing. Biomass is the opposite of what you want there, but it could be doable. I do wager, however, that the largest "climate cost" of steel comes from the repeated melting of the steel.

[-] 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Coal has a bunch of impurities compared to charcoal I thought?

And if the repeated melting is done by burning biomass/charcoal or with clean(er) energy then it's not a huge issue

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this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2024
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