Also, in b4 fascists start pretending like the Stalinist bootlicker Thalmann hadn't spent the past half-decade backstabbing and burning bridges with the SPD, which had previously been cooperative with the KPD after the establishment of the Weimar Republic.
Correct.
"Voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil."
You have a duty to ensure the least amount of harm is being done.
Saving three people out of ten is better than saving zero out of ten.
Rewatched the divergent series recently, in the last movie there's an exchange between two characters that goes roughly like this:
"If you only had enough to save one, would you choose a sick, dying old man or the young boy?"
"I wouldn't choose"
"Oh good, now they're both dead."
Reading though the comments, I have to say… I’m so glad you have the tolerance to argue with these kids about this. I bow before your seemingly infinite patience.
Yes accelerationism is bad.
No that doesn't mean you automatically get voters.
Sounds like Accelerationism. It's stupid, but not fascism.
Stalinists are absolutely fascists. Accelerationism is just the preferred technique.
I don't like these "polemic" definitions. I neither like the marxist-leninist definition (everything not socialism is fascism) nor the idea that any state-socialism is fascism, even if it becomes authoritarian or totalitarian.
The best definition for fascism I recently learned is "A belief in inequality based on a mythological identity" (like for example race or gender). See this book: What Is Fascism? An Excerpt From “Fascism Today: What It Is and How to End It”
What I call socialists who insist on principles and advocate for supporting fascism is "stupid entitled children". But they are not really the problem. We just saw in France that the centrists there rather cooperate with fascists than with socialists.
Accelerationism is one of the dumbest ideas I’ve ever heard of.
No no no, I'm sure we can build a better government from the ashes of our current resources, which we burnt down while gaining nothing in the process /s
Right, because if there was enough support for your stance that you could ensure it would prevail in the post collapse struggle, then you could almost certainly achieve it with democratic support instead.
I mean it is like wanting the cold war to end with nuclear weapons. No one wins and we all die. Even the preppers who built bunkers back then would not survive for long, and this is assuming they survive the initial blasts.
Collapse theory is fundamentally a privileged take. It is a position that is impossible to accept without either the assumption that you'd survive, or the assumption that the disproportionate harm to the disadvantaged is worth it for your end goals even if you die too.
Either way, you're declaring that your paradise can and should be built over the bodies of the disemprivileged, and are automatically wrong and a horrible person for even being able to think that way.
You are the exact kind of monster that built the colonialist model of Israel, just insisting that your nation built on the bodies of the innocent will be a more moral one somehow.
Excellent take. It is a clear indicator of an individualist mindset.
Honestly, the appeal of accelerationism to me is that it pretty much just requires me to give up.
I don't think i'm the only one with a looming anxiety that capitalists are too entrenched to be defeated, that i can't stop the ongoing collapse of society; well if i believe in accelerationism, then i don't have to, the collapse becomes desireable if i can convince myself that a better world will emerge on the other side. It's faster and easier to let society destroy itself than it is to built.
While my privilege is undeniable, subjectively, my emotional experience of accelerationism is one of giving up and relaxing. Which, you know, would feel nice sometimes.
So i know at least one source of accelerationist sentiment is rooted in fatigue and impatience, i know that because it's the one i experience. The answer is an ongoing realization that progress is incremental.
You realize your life would be worse if society collapsed and then be vastly more stressful, right?
Yes.
Maybe i should rewrite the above, i meant it as a self-critical observation of why i give into a lazy and narrow-minded worldview. I thought it was clear everything i wrote is the opposite of an endorsement
Wonderful comment. I’ve been thinking similarly for a while. Nice too see it put out there.
Collapse theory is fundamentally a privileged take
It's definitely a white-male-privileged take in the US.
It also just doesn't make sense from a logistics sense -- You want to address the current set of big problems by ... creating more big problems to address with the same/less resources and organizations? Some that are more time sensitive than others?
You want to address the current set of big problems by ... creating more big problems to address.
Right. There's already a shitload of big problems.
Ah yes because as we know the SPD working with the Nazis was ok because it was a united coalition. Today we're all expected to vote for this Facist Lite™ liberal because? And after decades of "harm reduction" and slowly giving ground to the right what harm has been reduced? It seems to me that this country is dying a slow and painful death while the Liberals are too ignorant to notice it.
Ah yes because as we know the SPD working with the Nazis was ok because it was a united coalition.
I love that when it's pointed out that the KPD literally worked with the Nazis tankies resort to making shite up.
The SPD literally backed Hindenburg, what the hell are you talking about. It seems to me like you're spewing historical revisonism and claiming anyone who calls you out is a "tankie".
The SPD literally backed Hindenburg
Would you like to remind me who Hindenburg was running against?
Fucking lmao.
For those who aren't familiar with the Weimar Republic, Hindenburg was supported by the SPD when he was running against a little-known fellow called 'Adolf Hitler' running under the banner of the Nazi Party.
But definitely, tankies know their shit when they start talking about how the SPD supported the Nazis for endorsing Hindenburg's candidacy against the Nazis. lmao
Remember, according to tankies, opposing the Nazis is a reactionary act! Critical support for Hitler, right? Red fash never change.
I wouldn't cut things off at a half decade. A little more than a decade prior the German communist leadership were killed by military companies in coalition with the SPD, and then those same military groups tried to overthrow the SPD government, but the SPD ended up compromising with the coup uprising anyway.
So understandably the extrajudicial slayings of German's communists sort of formed a schism between the SPD and the KPD. This all but assured any remaining communist power or authority in Germany had to look to the barely formed USSR for support: they'd literally fled there with their lives.
The important context is this period includes the aftermath of World War 1 where the German Empire collapsed and with the loss of centralized government and authority, communes and provisional governments were being formed all across Europe. There were also mercenary groups wanting to abolish the Republic and restablish the monarchy.
I wouldn’t cut things off at a half decade. A little more than a decade prior the German communist leadership were killed by military companies in coalition with the SPD,
Yes, after trying to coup the government before elections could be held. Funny how tankies and their apologists always leave that out.
and then those same military groups tried to overthrow the SPD government, but the SPD ended up compromising with the coup uprising anyway.
"Compromising" here meaning "If you surrender we'll give you amnesty". Wow, what an astounding compromise.
Funny how tankies and their apologists always leave that out.
How is highlighting the aftermath of World War 1 and that context leaving it out? Specifically in the attempt to include the anarchy of post war Europe is hardly a nefarious or intentional omission. Don't mistake calling out a truncated timeline as a call for another one. I am refrencing the roving bands of militant monarchists seeking to overthrow the nascent republic and you're missing that?
The critical issue is Ebert (who inherited authority from the monarchy initially) made a coalition with the Freikorps to allow the Weimar republic to inherit the separate governance for the military that existed in the Reich. That was instrumental and core to the issue. The organization and governance of Germany military until, like, NATO, was extremely hostile to democracy itself, amd surprisingly also a critical barrier to german communism in any form, be it spartacist, stalinist, or whatever.
Ebert making his pact with Groener after being given power, but before elections, shouldn't be overlooked either. Pact in November 1918, extrajudicial slayings by Freikorps a week before the January 1919 elections.
"Compromising" here meaning "If you surrender we'll give you amnesty". Wow, what an astounding compromise.
Yes, this is the historical context. Compare to the level of amnesty given to communists who were summarily executed.
The failure of the proletariat revolution to succeed in Europe, especially in Germany, left Russia as the only successful revolution. The shift away from permanent revolution by the trotsky wings into stalins 'socialism in one country' was a response to what happened primarily in Germany and Hungary. It should be of no surprise communists in Germany by the 30s were following the USSR line.
How is highlighting the aftermath of World War 1 and that context leaving it out?
By literally leaving that context out and attempting to paint it as "Mean ol' SPD went murdering the KPD for no reason :(" instead of literal fucking self-defense against an anti-democratic coup attempt. But fascist apologists rarely argue in good faith.
The critical issue is Ebert (who inherited authority from the monarchy initially) made a coalition with the Freikorps to allow the Weimar republic to inherit the separate governance for the military that existed in the Reich. That was instrumental and core to the issue.
Ah, yes, what he should have done is nobly refused compromise with what was the actual power returning to the country from the front, that way Germany could have enjoyed fascist dictatorship some 15 years early, or a ML dictatorship some 25 years early.
I really am more focused on the whole Prussian military organization structure and the coalition with the Freikorps, who were demonstrably anti-democratic monarchist military groups in direct coalition with the Ebert government. It is such a major component to the whole SPD-KPD relationship that was so bad it led to Thallman actively supporting Hitler.
The context as to what led Thallman's KPD to arrive at such a disastrous policy you're referencing here is something I think is interesting and important for people to know about. Obviously such history is offensive for this topic, and not what you were looking for.
I really am more focused on the whole Prussian military organization structure and the coalition with the Freikorps, who were demonstrably anti-democratic monarchist military groups in direct coalition with the Ebert government. It is such a major component to the whole SPD-KPD relationship that was so bad it led to Thallman actively supporting Hitler.
The Freikorps was such a major component to the SPD-KPD relationship that... almost a decade after the Freikorps had been effectively disbanded, it FORCED Thalmann, coming into power in a KPD that had had a very productive relationship with the SPD for the past 8 or so years, to cooperate with the literal Nazis.
Fucking insane.
The whole organization of the German (prussian) military was not just Freikorps. That whole machination which Ebert helped maintain is what I am explicitly referencing and including. Even so: that period of time where Freikorps effectively disbanded was when they converted into orgs like Consul or the SA starting in the 1920s. That component isn't as fragmented or inconsequential as it may seem. There is continuity there and it isn't insane to know about it.
KPD that had had a very productive relationship with the SPD for the past 8 or so years
They really did not. The SPD fucked up Weimar by working with all the right wing factions in the 20s and then the KPD fucked up by working with the right wing faction in the 30s. The united front collapsed in like 1922, or at least by the 1924 elections and definitely by the time Hindenburg was president from 1925.
The fraught politics of post war Germany was so chaotic that it resulted in something so crazy and insane to a modern reviewer: the KPD actively supporting Hitler like it was going to work out.
Even so: that period of time where Freikorps effectively disbanded was when they converted into orgs like Consul or the SA starting in the 1920s. That component isn’t as fragmented or inconsequential as it may seem. There is continuity there and it isn’t insane to know about it.
The idea of comparing the Freikorps with the SA is insane. Consul was disbanded in 1922 by government repression. But hey, who gives a fuck about facts when you can play Bothsides(tm) games?
They really did not.
Oh, okay, so the period between 1920-1928 just didn't exist, cool cool cool.
The period of time where the KPD became Stalinist and Thalmann took over? When the Nazis became powerful with th3 support of the ebtrenched hyper right wing? That's the context I am getting at. That period of time was the SPD hemorraging support in all directions, be it to KPD or NSDAP. Like, I am highlighting the absurdity of the 1930s KPD position here that the failings to stop the Nazis thus far led to Thallman thinking that absurd policy had a shot.
The SA 100% grew out of Freikorps.
And 1920-1928 is not the 8 years prior to 1931, or a half decade.
Being so loosey goosey with these things doesn't mesh with the kinds of statements you keep making here.
The period of time where the KPD became Stalinist and Thalmann took over?
Thalmann didn't consolidate his power until 1928, so unless 1920-1928 has a different meaning than the obvious one...
When the Nazis became powerful with th3 support of the ebtrenched hyper right wing?
The Nazis became powerful in 1920-1928.
Are you sure you want to keep to that claim.
The SA 100% grew out of Freikorps.
Your claim was that the Freikorps 'converted' into orgs like the SA. Which is not even vaguely true. Like, I don't really know how to carry on a conversation with someone who looks at the independent paramilitaries of the Freikorps and sees the same thing as a fucking street fighting arm of a minor political party because both are comprised of right-wing WW1 veterans.
And 1920-1928 is not the 8 years prior to 1931, or a half decade.
Being so loosey goosey with these things doesn’t mesh with the kinds of statements you keep making here.
it FORCED Thalmann, coming into power in a KPD that had had a very productive relationship with the SPD for the past 8 or so years, to cooperate with the literal Nazis.
Your lack of literacy is not my problem. Sorry that "Thalmann came into power in 1928 after 8 or so years of a productive relationship between the KDP and SDP" is too complex for you to parse.
What you're missing is that PugJesus is trying to push the narrative that anyone unwilling to vote for modern Democrats is an accelerationist, just like a bad German.
which had previously been cooperative with the KPD after the establishment of the Weimar Republic.
Famously the SPD didn't work together with fascists to create the kill squads that murdered Rosa Luxemburg.
To reiterate what I said the last time centrists acted revisionist about this shit, nobody in history has been more vindicated than Ernst motherfucking Thalmann. Social Democrats are objectively the moderate wing of fascism and they enthusiastically participated in suppressing everyone to the left of them until there was nobody left and the Nazis decided it was their turn.
Famously the SPD didn’t work together with fascists to create the kill squads that murdered Rosa Luxemburg.
Famously, the Spartacus Uprising was definitely a democratic movement and not an attempt to seize the government by force before democratic elections could be held. /s
But hey, tankies love coups and hate democracy, so it's unsurprising that fascism, to you, means 'having elections'.
hey look there's one haha
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