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submitted 2 months ago by AstralPath@lemmy.ca to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

I was just reading this thread... https://sh.itjust.works/post/23476261

...and it got me thinking about something that I've wanted for a long time. Why is it that keyboards have not evolved to have dedicated copy/paste keys left of the main board? I'd love to see an additional column of keys left of Esc->Ctrl configurable as macros at least. I do a lot of copy/paste for work. The current shortcuts arent terrible or anything but they're not exactly comfortable. I'd rather move my whole hand to the left for a macro key than contort to hit the current shortcut.

What do you think?

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[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 108 points 2 months ago

CTRL-C / CTRL-V too much? ;)

[-] AstralPath@lemmy.ca 19 points 2 months ago

Not exactly. Its just awkward for a bunch of repetitions, especially on MacOS keyboards. CMD+C/V is even worse on those.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 48 points 2 months ago

Honestly I LOVE being able to have Ctrl and Cmd be different modifiers.

Ctrl-C is break, Cmd-C is copy. And so on. All the Unixy stuff respects Ctrl and ignores Cmd and vice versa for the Mac stuff. Honestly it’s the best keyboard setup I have experienced and the only one which never manages to irritate me.

(Personally I am fine without a dedicated copy/paste key; the only ones I like having dedicated keys for are things like volume up/down for which I’m not aware of a universally understood key combination for)

[-] EleventhHour@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Here here. Whenever I work on a Linux machine, I really miss having a separate command button for all of the commandline stuff. I keep missing it and have ti remember to hit Ctrl instead.

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[-] SzethFriendOfNimi@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

Personally since I use touch typing being able to hit ctrl-c,v without looking works best for me. Anything else would require me to shift my hands too far away from the “home row” and slow me down.

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[-] keletappi@sopuli.xyz 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

With 35 years of computer experience I can say that anything except Ctrl+Insert/Shift+Insert is worse.

By that I mean, we all need to adjust our brain to be fluent on which ever ecosystem we are currently logged on to, and become native users of key combos on all we use. I have used MacOS daily since 2004, and linux, Windows and DOS all longer than that. It takes practice, a lot of practice, but in the end I don’t even realize I sometimes use Ctrl+c, other times Cmd+c, and yet again Ctrl+Shift+c. It all comes naturally, by some miracle my brain knows which one to use. Granted, the DOS one I use so rarely these days I need a double take on the Ctrl+Insert. Last time was still around 6 hours ago today.

I guess what I’m saying is keep doing it, you’ll get there.

[-] masterofn001@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

To paste in Linux:

Ctrl + shift + v in terminal.

Ctrl + u in nano but nano doesn't use the same copy buffer but you can also use Ctrl + shift + v but only to paste something copied from outside nano.

To paste in vi(m) :?!&///<¥₱!

Pretty much everywhere else, eg file manager, any GUI, browsers, etc. is Ctrl +v

I also just love that it is beyond simple to create any key combo shortcut for absolutely anything on Linux.

Make that menu key work for the real estate it occupies.

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[-] fartsparkles@sh.itjust.works 6 points 2 months ago

You can just move the modifier keys around. I have Caps Lock as Ctrl and Ctrl as CMD.

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[-] Banichan@dormi.zone 9 points 2 months ago

It's a bit awkward to do a basic action

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[-] Mediocre_Bard@lemmy.world 50 points 2 months ago
[-] GlenRambo@jlai.lu 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Most people would use dedicated single copy/paste buttons more than page-up/down or home/end.

[-] Mediocre_Bard@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

I 100% agree with what you are saying. Not to be contrary, but just because it amuses me, I use page up/down and home/end all the time. You're still right.

[-] Wrufieotnak@feddit.org 8 points 2 months ago

No and yes. If the copy and paste buttons would be at the position of page-up/down, I think many people would still use Ctrl+C because it is quickerto reach.

If the keys would be at easily reachable positions, then sure.

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[-] kava@lemmy.world 31 points 2 months ago

I disagree. [Modifier] + C & [mod] + V works just as good as a dedicated button and you are using the space more efficiently by having multiple uses for one key.

Keyboard already has a lot of buttons. We should be considering which to remove, not any additions

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[-] weew@lemmy.ca 30 points 2 months ago

Oh man, you were born too late for the wild 90s era of experimental keyboards

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[-] finestnothing@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago

Come to the vim side, we have y for copy (yank) and p for paste. We even have d for cut

[-] SendMePhotos@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago
[-] ByteOnBikes@slrpnk.net 13 points 2 months ago

I'm laughing way too hard at this thank you

[-] sep@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago

The best text editor in the world. With the best training manual.
https://vim-adventures.com/

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[-] 0laura@lemmy.world 20 points 2 months ago

no, never. 34 keys is all you ever need1000000967

Could you screenshot this again but showing what each key maps too?

Christian Seleg (not sure if spelt correctly, but the Apollo for Reddit dev) has a recent video on his channel about making a keyboard very similar to this shape and it looked really cool but again couldn’t quite understand what key each is.

[-] 0laura@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I configured it using ZMK, it's a firmware for wireless keyboards. The keyboard is "wireless", I'm just using USB cables for power while I'm waiting for the batteries to arrive. The keyboard you saw might be the Ferris Sweep, which mine is based on. Well, based on is probably the wrong word, I copied the layout, rotated the pinkies a bit and did the PCB myself using Ergogen and Kicad.

This is my default layer:

I use the Colemak mod DH matrix layout. Colemak is a common alternative key layout, mod DH is a certain modified version of it, and matrix means that the keys aren't row staggered. You can also see that some keys have some more stuff on them, those are homerow mods (red) and dual function layer keys (blue). Homerow mods is the name for a common practice on small keyboards where you place modifier keys in the homerow along with the normal keys. Holding them turns them into the modifier and pressing them is just the normal key.

Holding A or O is like holding CTRL R or I is ALT S or E is Shift T or N is the Windows key The keyboard is split so they're mirrored on the two sides (also useful for when you want to do CTRL+A for example)

The layer shifts function similarly, pressing them results in the normal key (tab, space, enter) and holding them shifts me to a different layer (layer 7, layer 1 (its 0 indexed), and layer 2). Layer 7 has function keys, layer 1 is for navigation and layer 2 has my symbols.

layer 1: (here you can see that I technically have a "numpad", just that it's always directly under my hand instead of off to the side

layer 2:

layer 7:

I have 11 layers in total, but the other 7 are just special layers for games. I use this keyboard for everything, including programming and gaming without any issues.

edit: not sure why people downvoted you, it's an awesome question and I'm glad you gave me an excuse to spam you all with info about my keyboard. Also, Ben Vallack got me into all of this, he kinda inspired this layout. He has some AWESOME videos about keyboards like this, look him up if you're interested! You don't have to go as far as I did.

[-] 667@lemmy.radio 6 points 2 months ago

Mechanical keyboards like this are often fully programmable. I have a ZSA Moonlander and routinely modify the function of each and every key. Everyone’s workflow is a little different, for example I have a Del Word key which deletes entire words, but is really a macro of the OS key + Backspace.

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[-] octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Not to be that guy, but on Linux if you highlight text you have already copied it to a different clipboard than the CTRL-C/V one, and can paste it by a middle click. This has been the default in Linux since before I used it (I'm 17 years in with Linux), but CTRL-C/V are so in my head that I usually forget to do it.

I was told that this would go away with Wayland, but I just tested it in a Plasma6 Wayland session and it clearly has not gone away.

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[-] Fester@lemm.ee 16 points 2 months ago

I tried binding them to my MMO mouse keys once, and immediately removed them when I imagined how easy it would be to accidentally copy and paste something unwanted into a PowerPoint presentation. WFH and all that, you know. It’s good that it takes a tiny bit of intention.

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[-] ExtraMedicated@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago

That's why I got a mouse with extra buttons on the side, so I can just copy and paste using my thumb.

[-] sep@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

Having keys to the left of ctrl is a fucking mess! Ine of my kids have a gaming keyboard with a extra column of keys there and it is a pain to use.

What should happen, is move capslock to the locks row on the tip right side. And give us a new meta key there instead! That would be a win-win

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[-] BorgDrone@lemmy.one 12 points 2 months ago

Why is it that keyboards have not evolved to have dedicated copy/paste keys left of the main board?

You mean like on a Sun type 4 keyboard, they had this since the early 90’s at least.

If you want this, you can try to find a Sun type 7 keyboard which has a USB connector. You should be able to get it to work on Windows with a bit of remapping of the extra keys.

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[-] drmoose@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

Keyboards already have too many keys. Your fingers are extremely inefficient at certain distances so you should never even touch numpad with proper keyboard design. 10 fingers can combine a lot of keys.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 11 points 2 months ago

If I was an evil peripheral manufacturer, I'd not only add keys to copy and paste, but I'd add them to the mouse too.

Then I'd have a small display in the keyboard that showed the last five things you copied, and let you select which one you'd paste.

That way users would get used to it, have to buy my gratuitously expensive peripherals with displays in them for no reason, and then not know how to use anything else.

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[-] philpo@feddit.org 11 points 2 months ago

Got myself a cheap Chinese programmable foot switch with three switches that enables me to do exactly that without fucking up my normal layout. And it can be switched to other things depending on the application as well. Very useful.

[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 months ago

No, it should be on the mouse.

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[-] Oaksey@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago

I wish there was a dedicated hotkey combo that worked across all applications for paste plain text

[-] gandalf_der_12te 8 points 2 months ago

on linux debian, it's ctrl+shift+v

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[-] wiccan2@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Have you tried the shortcuts for the other side of the keyboard

Ctrl + insert = copy

Shift + insert = paste

Shift + delete = cut

I find them much easier to use than the traditional shortcuts.

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[-] lycanrising@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago

I have a mouse that happens to have two extra buttons off to the side and mapping those to 'copy' and 'paste' has been the best thing i've ever done for my productivity. Also mapping middle mouse button to 'screenshot to clipboard' but that's just a personal thing i happen to do a lot

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[-] demesisx@infosec.pub 9 points 2 months ago
[-] confusedbytheBasics@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

I don't know about that but I think we need two clipboards, standard. If we had the existing clipboard and a second with dedicated keys that would be very helpful.

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[-] AnokLola@lemm.ee 8 points 2 months ago

If you're using Linux, you can do this easily with custom key bindings.

[-] thermal_shock@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

is Ctrl c and Ctrl v too hard for OP? it's damn near universal with no extra effort to setup...

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[-] gens@programming.dev 7 points 2 months ago

On linux middle mouse is traditionally paste, with just selecting text being copy.

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[-] datavoid@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 months ago

When I started my current job, I thought I was getting a repetitive stress injury from the hundreds of copy pastes I was making daily. Eventually I got used to it, but my hand still hurts occasionally.

I am 100% behind the idea of dedicated buttons!

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[-] ace_garp@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago

That button's name... Middle Mouse.

[-] Geth@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 months ago

Middle mouse click is so much more useful as the navigation tool that it is. Using it for something completely unrelated like pasting is degeneracy.

Actually, any text manipulation assigned to the mouse is completely ignoring the functionality of the 2 normal input devices on a normal computer.

[-] Nibodhika@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago

You're missing the point, in Linux middle mouse button works for the navigation that you're mentioning, and additionally it pastes the text you have selected (not the one you have copied, so realistically you can "copy/paste" two things at once). So you don't lose anything, you just gain functionality.

[-] Geth@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 2 months ago

You lose the auto-scroll button, which I use all the time and it only makes sense to be on the scroll wheel. I dispise what Linux does to this button. 🤷

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[-] HatchetHaro 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

At some point, the populace felt keyboard shortcuts were enough and they have everything else they need on a keyboard. It's the standard, other keyboard designs didn't really quite take off, and most people can barely use a full-sized keyboard anyway.

Some people prefer smaller keyboards, and are willing (and wanting) to have more shortcuts and function layers for ergonomic and desk space reasons.

(If you use a 40% or smaller keyboard, you're weird, and I love/hate you.)

Some other people use so many shortcuts that it becomes so infeasible to remember or press them all, so they get macro pads, or even entire additional keyboards to function as macro pads.

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[-] vededju@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

I guarantee I can hit ctrl-c faster than I can move my hand to a different part of the keyboard.

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this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2024
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