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submitted 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) by DrunkEngineer@lemmy.world to c/fuckcars@lemmy.world

ASHLAND — Twenty-six Amish who refused to pay their fines for violating a law that requires flashing lights on their buggies appeared in court on Friday.

Once there, Ashland Municipal Court Judge John Good ruled out the possibility of jail time for them and instead said he would impose liens on their real estate.

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[-] Juice@midwest.social 82 points 2 months ago

People are so up in arms at the seeming contradiction of Amish using a light and a battery on their buggies.

Guess what: most Amish businesses have cell phones. If you drive through Amish country in Ohio, you will see dozens of people in Amish garb riding e-bikes.

I hate cars and judges, and frankly Ohio is a hellhole; but if some lights are going to make people safer it really isn't going to be that big of a burden. If the judge says they have to do it, then their community elders will approve it, nbd.

None of you ever had Mennonite friends and it shows.

[-] Michal@programming.dev 27 points 2 months ago

I think victim blaming is the problem here.

[-] roscoe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

By victims I assume you mean unsuspecting drivers coming across a dark, unlighted vehicle in the road at night who could be injured or killed by an accident or swerving to avoid one, right?

[-] blaine@lemmy.ml 19 points 2 months ago

No, by victims we mean the people using a road in the way roads were used for centuries, completely legally. The ones being hit from behind by people in too much of a hurry to use proper caution in area where Amish frequently travel and they are not the only users of the roadway.

If I drive through a neighborhood with a "Children at Play" sign and run over a kid, I can 100% guarantee you that I am not the victim. That is some very cringe logic. The road exists first for pedestrians, secondly for non-motorized vehicles, and lastly.... for automobiles.

[-] roscoe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 2 months ago

They're not using it legally, hence the legal proceedings.

[-] StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's immoral. Sometimes the laws themselves are immoral. I believe this may be such a situation.

[-] roscoe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 2 months ago

I don't necessarily disagree. But someome using the road legally needs be able to assume others are too. If you can't, what do you do? Walking, riding a bike, or driving do you stop at every green light to make sure no one is going to decide the red lights don't apply to them? Do you idle down the road at 10mph whenever it's dark or there is reduced visibility to make sure someone didn't decide the laws don't apply to them and drove an unlighted vehicle?

The most important thing about using a road safely, whether you're walking, riding, or driving, is to be predictable. A large unlighted vehicle appearing out of the darkness is not predictable.

If you think the law should be changed and some other accommodation made, that's a reasonable opinion. But until that happens, the person injured or killed by illegal activity is the victim, not the person acting illegally.

[-] StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world 10 points 2 months ago

That's a great response and I'm now on board with you. You're considering this from a perspective I hadn't, but I see it now. Thanks for taking the time to write this out.

Let it be known that on this day, the sixth of August in the year of our Lord 2024, an event of great import and considerable rarity occurred: a man's opinion was changed by Internet discourse.

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[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 months ago

Traffic laws tend to be about safety rather than morality.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 8 points 2 months ago

If they can't see a fucking cart with their headlights on, then what chance do they have of avoiding a cyclist or a pedestrian out for a walk?

Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive.

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[-] MediaSensationalism@lemmy.world 15 points 2 months ago

The idea behind the typical Amish perspective on technology is to preserve community. Exceptions are sometimes made as necessary or reasonable, washing machines being one of the most popular exceptions. It seems to be working well for them.

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[-] moistclump@lemmy.world 79 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Wouldn’t reflectors work and be low-to-no technology to allow Amish to keep to their tradition? I’m thinking similar material to diamond grade street signs.

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 82 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

No. I live in PA, and we have a similar law. I remember before it was passed, and seeing buggies with just the reflectors.

Close up, directly in front of lights, you can see reflectors fine, but your lights aren't always pointing at them. Maybe it's a curve or a hill, maybe they are approaching an intersection, but flashing lights can be seen from all angles.

Also, most Amish have no problem using modern technology when required. It's not like a pathological fear, it's a religious devotion to self-reliance. They use cell phones and power tools when they need to, and they hire "English" (non-Amish) to drive them in cars. Some are more insular than others, and they rarely get involved in politics, so they mostly just do whatever is required.

[-] DrunkEngineer@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Maybe it’s a curve or a hill, maybe they are approaching an intersection, but flashing lights can be seen from all angles.

Note that this law requires Amish use lights even in daytime, which won't be visible around a bend or hill at such times. What's next...telling bikes/peds they also have to go around wearing daytime strobe lights?

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 41 points 2 months ago

Bikes should have daytime strobes and headlamps. Cars should always have their headlights on. Visibility reduces accidents.

You can be on a curved road or a hill and have vehicles you can see that are not within your headlight beams. Further, if a vehicle is obstructed by a curve or hill, you may see lights illuminate the dark ahead of you before the vehicle comes into view.

There's no reason not to have lights on vehicles on the road.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 2 months ago

Yeah, and we should fit all the wildlife with strobes too, because drivers should absolutely not be responsible for driving slowly enough to actually be able to see an obstruction within the range of their own headlights in time to stop without smashing into it.

[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

Right, because that's entirely the same thing.

Vehicles on the road are there intentionally, operated by humans who are respon- You know what, man? You win. I really don't care enough about this to keep arguing with you. I've explained this, and if you still don't get it, that's on you.

[-] snooggums@midwest.social 9 points 2 months ago

Further, if a vehicle is obstructed by a curve or hill, you may see lights illuminate the dark ahead of you before the vehicle comes into view.

Plus this sometimes works during the day in shadey areas or when it is very overcast.

Or when people are idiots and just don't turn them on when they're supposed to.

You'd think with how prevalent automatic headlights are nowadays there'd be a lot less people driving with them off in the rain/dark, yet every single night I see at least one idiot doing it in a car that I know has automatic headlights.

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[-] snooggums@midwest.social 14 points 2 months ago

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm since motorcycles and cars in the US have required daytime running lights for a couple decades.

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[-] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 29 points 2 months ago

They already use those. This goes a lot deeper than "buggies are hard to see" and gets into governmentally preferred classes. Requiring the Amish switch from reflectors to lights is an act of both victim blaming and attempted cultural erasure

[-] rtxn@lemmy.world 22 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Horse-drawn carriages are slow-moving vehicles just like construction or agricultural equipment, or stationary obstacles. They present a danger if visibility is limited by weather or the road's curvature.

Where I live, every vehicle is required to be illuminated when outside city limits, including carriages, and the horses themselves.

[-] superkret@feddit.org 35 points 2 months ago

I hate this framing. The danger doesn't come from the slow moving buggies, it comes from cars moving too fast to stop within the driver's line of sight. Instead of a buggy, the "obstacle" could also be a pedestrian, a deer or a fallen tree. Should blinking lights be required for those, too?

[-] rtxn@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

You can hate it all you want if that makes you feel superior, but it's still true.

could also be a pedestrian, a deer or a fallen tree

High-vis equipment is required here when a person has to spend an extended period on roads outside inhabited areas (actually high-vis gear is mandatory in all motor vehicles), and are required to walk on the left side to always have oncoming traffic in sight as opposed to behind. Larger roads have mitigation structures (mounds, fences, warnings signs, speed limits, or grade separation) where wildlife is known to cause problems. Our taxes pay for road inspection and maintenance services to clear natural or manmade obstacles.

[-] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

If there are people on the roads they aren’t uninhabited.

“She was asking for it going to that neighborhood dressed like that.”

What’s the equivalent of rape culture but for cars mowing people down left and right?

[-] grue@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

What’s the equivalent of rape culture but for cars mowing people down left and right?

Reminds me of this: https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history

[-] DrunkEngineer@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

actually high-vis gear is mandatory in all motor vehicles

Wait, what? All this time I've been breaking the law by riding in cars without my high-vis vest?

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[-] chunkystyles@sopuli.xyz 7 points 2 months ago

...or it's an effort to save lives...

[-] patrlim 14 points 2 months ago

The Amish actually do use technology, but they can't use it unless there's no other alternative, for example word processing.

Also, they tend to use Linux.

[-] bdonvr@thelemmy.club 24 points 2 months ago

That's a broad statement. Different sects and communities have different levels of what they consider acceptable.

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[-] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

Also, they tend to use Linux.

I'm assuming only Gentoo, right? Compiling libraries you will never need is the height of decadence.

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[-] irish_link@lemmy.world 71 points 2 months ago

I am looking at all the comments and sub comments and realizing almost all the people commenting don’t realize this is posted in fuckcars.

The entire point of this community is to point out how cars have screwed everyone else from using roads and paths that at times predated cars. Most major city’s could add good bike paths and lighten the traffic by using bikes or any other non vehicle option.

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[-] Phegan@lemmy.world 46 points 2 months ago

It's the responsibility of the driver not to hit something, not the something not to get hit.

[-] CoffeeJunkie@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago

See halfsack's comment. To elaborate on that point, actually good & competent drivers have many responsibilities. Among them is to see....and be seen.

As others have said, a lot of these buggies are all black. And they're puttering around the road, on a dark nights, well under established speed limits. 2 vehicles traveling at very different speeds, the slow one is hard to see. That's just begging for an accident.

At least where I live, it is technically illegal to drive without headlights on when it's raining. If windshield wipers are required, so are headlights. This is to bolster visibility in poor weather conditions. Also just headlights in general, you can get pulled over & ticketed for driving at night without headlights. Why should the Amish be a dangerous exception to the rules of the road??

This alone: Roads funded by taxpayers, which IIRC the Amish are largely tax-exempt. Thus: if they wish to travel on our roads, they need to abide by our rules & not make the roads more dangerous.

To be slightly more accommodating to Luddites, we could put hi-vis reflective tape on the buggies. But again as others have said, the Amish have all kinds of workarounds/exceptions/justifications to get what they want. They have mobile phones. Some have snowmobiles. They have generators, so they're not "tied into the worldly grid" but they generate & use electricity. So maybe they can get used to the idea of battery-powered lights on their buggies, for visibility.

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[-] halfsak@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

That's the general idea, but life's not that black and white. It's better if both parties contribute to avoiding collisions. It's the same reason why I'm required to have brake lights and hazard lights on my car.

[-] YeetPics@mander.xyz 10 points 2 months ago

Absolutely, I still don't ride my bike on the freeway, and I still check both ways before crossing roads, even when there is a crosswalk.

Sometimes reality is at odds with our idealistic views.

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[-] Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website 34 points 2 months ago

Hey look, Ohio once again going the wrong direction, just like every city I've lived in does with bicycles.

Cars keep crashing into bicycles/Amish? Penalize the bicycles/Amish! How dare they intrude into what has ALWAYS been the domain of cars.

Man, fuck Ohio and fuck cars. If I could ride my bicycle to work every day I would.

[-] Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago

Man, fuck Ohio

Clevelander here.

........yeah.

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[-] x00z@lemmy.world 33 points 2 months ago
  • Non electric reflectors
  • Change the roads and have separate roads for motorized and non motorized vehicles. Either put separate roads along them, widen the current ones
  • Move the blame towards the damn people that crash into these buggies, as they obviously are not paying attention to the road
  • Put more road lights. With LED and solar panels the installation cost for a simple light is pretty minimal nowadays.
  • Make it a rule that they can not drive at night instead of forcing electric lights upon their buggies. If they still drive at night, they are responsible for their own well-being

People and especially government forget that these kind of rules and laws are meant to protect the people. But instead the people they are supposed to protect are fined, forced to go up to the judge, forced to defend themselves against something that other people are telling them they should be doing. They are now victims because somebody else is supposedly trying to protect them from being victims.

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[-] grue@lemmy.world 19 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Once there, Ashland Municipal Court Judge John Good ruled out the possibility of jail time for them and instead said he would impose liens on their real estate.
...
On Thursday, Good told them that while they may prefer jail, an Ohio Supreme Court case prohibits him jailing defendants that refuse to pay fines for non-jailable offenses.

The State is going to steal their property and render them homeless for following their religion, as if that's somehow better than a short jail term.

[-] snooggums@midwest.social 12 points 2 months ago

Their religion is causing danger to other drivers. If their religion is that important they can not use the roads.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 29 points 2 months ago

Nah, that's car-supremacist bullshit. There are any number of unlit things that could be in the road that automobile drivers have a responsibility to watch out for: pedestrians, cyclists, deer, etc. The notion that a driver could smash into something because they were driving too fast for the throw of their headlights and somehow not be 100% responsible for it is ridiculous blame-shifting.

[-] snooggums@midwest.social 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

There are other things too, but as long as there are safety rules for vehicles a religious exemption is moronic. Safety is safety.

Fuck religious-supremist exemptions from valid* public safety requirements.

*Visibility for safety, pandemic distancing and mask requirements in public, etc. are valid. Mask bans are not valid for anyone, so there shouldn't even be a reason for religious exemptions to come up.

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[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 16 points 2 months ago

I gotta say I already thought this was a thing.

All the buggies in my area all have these lights already.

[-] kerrypacker@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

Festooned is a great word.

[-] Fedizen@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

why flashing lights and not reflectors?

[-] monotremata@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 months ago

I believe they were already required to use reflectors. Back in the 80's when I was sometimes in Ohio with my parents we used to pass Amish buggies sometimes, and they always had an orange triangle retroreflector thing on the back.

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this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2024
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