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As this #RedditBlackout accelerates the Fediverse experiment, I feel the urge... the need... to chime in with my 2-cents.

My summary of the current lay of the land: Beehaw saw a wave of pornography spam and decided to shut Lemmy.world off and Defederate from this server. I'm too new to this community to fully understand the wants/needs of each individual server, but I've been around the internet long enough to recognize that porn-spam is an age-old trolling technique and will occur again in the future. Especially as small, boutique, hobbyist servers pop up and online drama/rivalries increase, online harassment campaigns (like coordinated porn spam attacks) are simply an inevitability.

Lemmy.world wants open registrations. Beehaw does not: Beehaw wants users to be verified before posting. This is normal: many old /r/subreddits would simply shadowban all 1-year old accounts and earlier... giving the illusion that everything is well for 5+ or 10+ year old accounts, but cut out on the vast majority of spam accounts with short lives. This works for Reddit where you have a huge number of long-lived accounts, but its still not a perfect technique: you can pay poor people in 3rd world countries to create accounts, post on them for a year, and the these now verified accounts can be paid for by spammers to invade various subreddits.

I digress. My main point is that many subreddits, and now Lemmy-instances/communities, want a "trusted user". Akin to the 1+-year-old account on Reddit. Its not a perfect solution by any means, but accounts that have some "weight" to them, that have passed even a crude time-based selection process, are far easier to manage for small moderation teams.

We don't have the benefit of time however, so how do we quickly build trust on the Fediverse? It seems impossible to solve this problem on lemmy.world and Beehaw.org alone. At least, not with our current toolset.

A 3rd Server appears: ImNotAnAsshole.net

But lets add the 3rd server, which I'll hypothetically name "ImNotAnAsshole.net", or INAA.net for short.

INAA.net would be an instance that focuses on building a userbase that follows a large set of different instances recruiting needs. This has the following benefits.

  1. Decentralization -- Beehaw.org is famously only run by 4 administrators on their spare time. They cannot verify hundreds of thousands of new users who appear due to #RedditBlackout. INAA.net would allow another team to focus on the verification problem.

  2. Access to both lemmy.world and Beehaw.org with one login -- As long as INAA.net remains in the good graces of other servers (aka: assuming their user filtering model works), any user who registers on INAA.net will be able to access both lemmy.world and Beehaw.org with one login.

  3. Custom Moderation tools -- INAA.net could add additional features independently of the core github.com/LemmyNet programming team and experiment. It is their own instance afterall.

Because of #2, users would be encouraged to join INAA.net, especially if they want access to Beehaw.org. Lemmy.world can remain how it is, low-moderation / less curated users and communities (which is a more appropriate staging grounds for #RedditBlackout refugees). Beehaw.org works with the INAA.net team on the proper rules for INAA.net to federate with Beehaw.org and everyone's happy.

Or is it? I am new to the Fediverse and have missed out on Mastodon.social drama. Hopefully older members of this community can chime in with where my logic has gone awry.

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[-] ulu_mulu@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

My much simpler stance is: they don't want lemmy.world users on their instance, I'll respect that, I unsubbed from their communities and found the same elsewhere.

They're not the only Lemmy servers in the world, Lemmy is still new overall, I don't see any problem in "rebuilding" the 2 big subs they have somewhere else, I'm already putting my effort in contributing to make it so.

edit: typo

[-] spaduf 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the huge gap in the size of the communities. The largest beehaw communities have almost 20k subscribers while the largest I've seen from other instances seem to cap out at about 5k. I think the problem is that most of the users who still federate with beehaw will undoubtedly end up there. This presents serious difficulties for growing competing communities.

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[-] FantasticFox@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

You are just describing joining any one of the dozens on instances that aren't defederated from Beehaw or Lemmy.world - your INAA.net already exists in the form of all those communities which Beehaw didn't defederate.

[-] dragontamer@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

But which of those servers are personal vanity projects, and which servers are explicitly going to try to stay on the good terms of even fragile communities like Beehaw.org?

Server instances need to be clear about their intentions. If randomserver.org gets defederated from Beehaw.org, do they help the Beehaw.org team at moderating themselves? Or do they say "Whatever" and not try to help out?

This isn't clear. Servers, at least today, are still in the "Don't care who you sign up for" phase, which is naive and obviously wrong already.

[-] jgrim@discuss.online 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There’s a bunch of other instances. Like mine at discuss.online. Nothing new is needed.

Seems like you’re just suggesting everyone use beehaw with federated accounts.

[-] dragontamer@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Oh there's plenty that's needed.

The vast majority of users here are from #RedditBlackout and their eyes glaze over at that discussion point. They don't know what a "federated account" is.

What's needed is education? Community organization? Etc. etc. People are new to Lemmy and Fediverse. People are trying to figure out what the plan is. A lot of users are already feeling "betrayed" that they "chose the wrong server" when they registered here at lemmy.world.

[-] jgrim@discuss.online 8 points 1 year ago

The platform just needs to mature a bit. It’s new and discovered in desperation. It’s free and not monetized. Everyone is working in their free time to build something wonderful.

The Mlem team went from 2 people to 20. They’re about to drop a huge update to their beta app.

The lemmy team worked on front end improvements in the upcoming 0.18 front end.

I have a beta instance setup if anyone wants to see it.

Don’t feel betrayed. Have two accountants. Move to a new instance. Or just wait for them to federate again when the dust settles.

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[-] Kichae@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

A lot of users are already feeling "betrayed" that they "chose the wrong server" when they registered here at lemmy.world.

Many of those same users have been calling Beehaw admins snowflake dictators since before the block. These are people who want their cake and want to eat it, too. They want to not have to abide by Beehaw's rules, but also have unfettered access to Beehaw. That's not a tenable position.

[-] BlackCoffee@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

They want "Free speech" but not to bear the consequences.

Ring ring, the world doesn't work like that indeed.

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[-] MyOpinion@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

They will just block that too. Let them be. They want to play in their own little sandbox.

[-] dragontamer@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

Would they? Lemmy.ml is famously more moderated than Lemmy.world. They haven't blocked Lemmy.ml yet.

Beehaw.org is clearly aiming to be on the stricter-side of things. That's... fine. I don't agree with it, but I welcome this era of experimentation. Why? Because I've been part of communities that tore at each other's throats for the dumbest shit you've ever seen online. (XBox vs Playstation). I've been part of online guilds in video games where you'd launch DDOS attacks against other guilds.

This is just... internet troll tactics. What Beehaw has excellently done is step forward and start testing the new anti-troll tools available to them here in lemmy/Fediverse. I hope the best for them. Not because I agree with their leftist slant, but because I've been there. I've been part of communities that were systematically trolled by large, rival groups. Its not fun.

[-] upbeatoffbeat@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 year ago

So we got defederated? I guess that explains the massive decline of activity here. It’s really not selling the fediverse for me if you can suddenly be cut off from the rest of the world just like that.

[-] DarraignTheSane@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You've got it the other way around - Beehaw is defederating themselves from all the major instances, because they can't enforce a safe space like they want to at any kind of scale on this Fediverse model. Lemmy.world is about twice the size of Beehaw in number of users.

https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list

[-] dragontamer@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

That user is from sh.itjust.works, which is a 2nd server that Beehaw also Defederated from.

[-] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago

Sh.itjust.works is just as active as ever though, he might be using the wrong filter for his feed. Or he was primarily subscribed to beehaw communities.

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[-] sping@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago

Only from beehaw.org, right? I'm still seeing this from sdf.org.

Am I misunderstanding or does this not just mean you'll have to choose your registered instance to match your needs, and if some instances you like are too widely considered problematic to access from a broadly useful instance you may have to have another identity there.

Somewhere like beehaw.org appears to be an instance that's likely to exclude fairly aggressively, so that's a consideration for whether you want that to be your home.

[-] Kichae@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

You have it all exactly right.

Beehaw has a code of conduct that's relatively strict. People who sign up on Beehaw do so because they are looking for a more controlled atmosphere.

They've been trying to host a dinner party, and the college kids on spring break keep trying to crash it. So, they just closed their door. This isn't a problem. This is how freedom of association just works.

People clutch pearls over defederation every time a major instance gets defederated. It's always the same thing, too: "Why am I even here if I can't see everything??" But you can't see everything from Reddit -- it doesn't federate with Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram... And you can't see averything from any of the other centralized social media sites for the same reason.

They're all defederated from each other.

It's only a problem here because people conflate the websites they're using with the server software used to run them, and then feel entitled to direct access to anyone and anything using that software. Which... Is a mood, I guess.

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[-] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

This is your first comment in 3 days since making the account, and you want to discuss a "massive decline in activity".

I hate when people make this accusation but I'm seriously detecting a paid reddit shill. Why did you only save one of my posts and then comment this defeatist shit, in the past 3 days?

Truth is, it would cost almost nothing for reddit to pay a few trolls to come here to both spam and post divisive messages. Better a few million bucks now than a few billion down the road.

Anyone else think this is weird or am I tripping? Like the one and only comment in 3 days is just perfectly engineered to discourage people from the fediverse.

[-] drphungky@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I visited a few different times and even lurked for a bit before figuring out how sign up - doesn't mean someone is a shill if they did the same.

...but I also didn't understand enough to verify if traffic is lighter or heavier since I am just now getting how the underlying pipes and tubes work.

[-] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

In that case I apologize, I had sent you a private message earlier about the sorting algorithm but you must have missed it.

I'm still keeping my eye on you though...

[-] drphungky@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

I'm not the original one you responded to, so keep a closer eye haha!

[-] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

Bruh I need to go to bed 🫠

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[-] Aninjanameddaryll@sopuli.xyz 4 points 1 year ago

I'm keeping my eye on you, but only in the hope that you post nudes.

[-] upbeatoffbeat@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It took me a while to figure out how to make an account here but I’m more of a lurker than I am a commenter. I originally tried to sign up with beehaw but never heard back about my application so I was happy to see that I could still access their fairly large community from here. Can you not see how someone might be disappointed that a large chunk of the community is now gone from here?

As another commenter suggested, my feed settings were limiting me. Hot and Active constantly show posts that are 2-3 days old, making me think everything went stagnant. I was also using Mlem and didn’t know I had any replies until I opened up shitjustworks in my browser. I mostly switched to lurking on Squabbles now.

Although I could see Reddit being scummy and hiring some trolls, that doesn’t mean that everyone with some concerns about the fediverse means they’re automatically a Reddit shill. I was an Apollo user and won’t be going back to Reddit once the app dies for good. Currently I only open it to check RedditAlternatives to see where most of the community is going.

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[-] Wander@yiffit.net 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

With Lemmy there's actually a use case for user-only instances, which host no communities. Moderating well is tough and it makes sense to prevent brigading.

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[-] knighthawk0811@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago

can't users from any other instance already do this?

beehaw blocks world so they can't see each other but users from other instances can still see both. I'm currently on lemmy.one and I'm subbed to comms at both beehaw and LWorld.

they only problem i see is for users in those specific instances as they can't see one another, but everyone else can see both.

i think the result here is that beehaw will be limiting itself. probably fine as they are overwhelmed right now anyway. it seems that's what they wanted to do from the start as well. if they begin blocking even more instances things will get smaller for them.

but hey, that's the beauty of the fediverse. if you want an instance that does exactly what you want then go for it. make your own. link to whoever you want and block whoever you want

speaking of that, are users getting more ways to block instances and communities? I'd like to have all the tools to customize my feed. there's no AI doing it for me (which is good) so i need the ability to do it myself

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[-] drphungky@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I actually thought about starting my own server with very strict user verification, but I don't really have hosting capacity other than a personal server with like... One 9 of uptime. Nor do I care to change that.

But I think there would be serious draw with a user base that was guaranteed to be a real person, like through phone or face picture verification. Not everyone would go for it because not everyone wants to trust a random with that kind of information, but it worked on some subreddits like /r/fatfire for guaranteed proof of wealth. Think of it like having a public Facebook or Twitter account. Nothing stops you from having a bunch of anonymous alts, but certain servers might only want people from that vetted list. I'd certainly do it. If someone else wants to physically host the server, I'd be happy to vet people. But who would trust me?

[-] dragontamer@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Face-verification is overkill.

The strictest I'd be willing to support is Lobste.rs model. Invite-only with tree-bans.

If Alice invites Bob, and Bob invites Charlie... when Alice is Tree-banned, then Bob-and-Charlie are both part of the ban (as well as everyone else Bob And Charlie invited).

That is: you're fighting the wrong battle with verification. People don't want real life identities in practice, what they want is bans that actually fucking work. When tree-bans ban your entire invite list, people pay attention and change their behavior.

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[-] johntash@eviltoast.org 4 points 1 year ago

Your hypothetical 3rd server already exists as basically any other federated instance. I don't like the idea of having a central authority that controls user accounts though.

Maybe an alternative would be some sort of circle of trust type system that doesn't rely on a central authority?

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this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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