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submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) by Stamets@lemmy.world to c/tenforward@lemmy.world

I said a while back that I was gonna change my name due to my obscene displeasure with the final season but... nah. I'm Stamets. I love my lil gay boy and I love his lil gay family and I love the ship with the weirdly long nacelles.

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[-] Ibuthyr@discuss.tchncs.de 13 points 6 days ago

It may be canon, doesn't make it good though. What an awful series.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)
[-] Ibuthyr@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 6 days ago

Don't worry, got plenty of good Trek to (re)watch.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 11 points 6 days ago

Discovery may be canon, but I don't believe that the writers care all that much. They've certainly not made any effort to make it integrate with the rest of Trek.

Lower Decks on the other hand positively revels and the fact that it's canon.

I certainly know which is the more enjoyable of the shows as a result.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 16 points 6 days ago

They’ve certainly not made any effort to make it integrate with the rest of Trek.

wut

It takes place between ENT and TOS and then in the far future. In every case they've done everything they can to have it fit with the timeline. They brought back Pike and Number One, actually giving her a name after 50 odd years. Then in the future they elaborate on the Romulan/Vulcan relationship and Spocks impact on the Unification he was seeking for in previous Treks. They honor every single actor and character they can by naming ships after passed actors or after characters. They build on to that lore. So yes. They do make an enormous effort to integrate it with the rest of Trek.

You can not like it, that's fine, but saying that they've not made any effort is an outright lie.

[-] dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

I have a feeling you're going to get a lot of use out of this template.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

Coming back to this 2 days later and its still funny as fuck. I need to finish Disco.

[-] negativenull@lemmy.world 83 points 1 week ago
[-] samus12345@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago

LD being canon takes away some of the sting of Disco being canon. Since it's so far in the future the last 3 seasons can also easily be ignored.

[-] CptEnder@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago

As it should be.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 70 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Stamets is great. I love him.

I love a LOT of the characters on discovery, but I just found the story arcs it ended up telling very... Overblown.

Did the disco really have to save the literal galaxy every season? And skip across time so it could be placed into a pivotal role in every era?

Not a single time, not once, did the disco feel like just another ship in the fleet. It was always THE ship.

Season one is still the best IMO, with the disco being a secret research program hijacked by Lorca for his own purposes. The story felt right. But then the ship and crew just kept being extraordinary not just every season, but in every tiny moment.

I really love all the worldbuilding in Trek, but in disco that always played second fiddle to whatever crisis was going on, which the disco would then inevitably resolve. It was yawn-inducing to me.

Even as I adored lots of the small stuff the series did with the style, characters, and world.

Like Stamets!

[-] III@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

To be fair, if I gave you a fleet of starships and one of them could just appear anywhere at any time, it would be THE ship.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 15 points 1 week ago

Did the disco really have to save literal galaxy every season?

It really didn't.

In Season 1 the only 'save the galaxy' thing is basically a one-off episode plot. Not unlike many other Treks.

Season 2, yeah. That flagrantly is save the galaxy.

Season 3, they are not saving the galaxy, they're trying to help rebuild the Federation and its influence and uncover a scientific mystery. The Federation was crippled but existed and was at war with another group. Discovery shows up and is able to help with the use of a different perspective (a literal plot point) and new technology. The same thing happens in literally every Trek, it just switches sides on who has what tech. Enterprise was with basically everyone, SNW is the Gorn, TOS is the Klingons, TNG is the Romulans/Borg/Cardassians, DS9 is Cardassian/Dominion, PIC is Romulan Sect/Changelings/Borg, LD has the Pakleds and I'm sure that Prodigy has something as well. Haven't started it yet. Either way, in all of them the primary ship that we follow becomes a primary plot point in the wars. The only one that doesn't fit the mould is Voyager and that's because they're on their own but even then the show opens with Starfleet vs the Maquis.

Season 4, they're trying to uncover another scientific mystery that is wreaking havoc in the galaxy. Personally i'd say it's halfway there but not entirely. It's more of a political season with seeing the internal struggles of the Federation. The 'galaxy saving' is a backdrop that's set up for the inner aspects of the Federation being at odds with one another. It's a representation of the struggle thats also within Burnham and all the crew members for being in a new place far from home. I honestly think that Season 4 is a work of art.

Season 5, saving the galaxy also isn't a thing in this. Closest you can say is that they're trying to save the Federation from being destroyed. Galaxy seems to be fine otherwise. But even then the season is more of a treasure hunt. A shitty one but still a treasure hunt.

Not a single time, not once, did the disco feel like just another ship in the fleet. It was always THE ship.

As opposed to any other show? As mentioned, every show features a primary ship that ends up solving the conflicts or being a MAJOR player in it. This feels like a really bizarre complaint. The four Enterprises we follow all feel like THE ship. Do they meet up with other ships? Sure, but they're always the ones at the heart of the conflict and solving it. That's... how shows work? It's not like the new tech for Discovery is a big deal or not used as a constant plot point either. DS9 had the Defiant with a cloaking device that was heavily relied on. Why? Because that's what they had. Discovery has a spore drive which is why it's being used so much and why we follow it. Just like the Enterprise had its name or new path, Voyager had it's stranded space and DS9 had a new quirky ship based around a space station.

I really love all the worldbuilding in Trek, but in disco that always played second fiddle to whatever crisis was going on, which the disco would then inevitably resolve.

.... what?

I feel like you have completely missed the majority of what was happening on screen over the course of the show. The crisis is the second fiddle to the characters. It's used as a vehicle to drive character development as opposed to having characters drive a crisis like in TNG or Voyager. Not that both didn't have character development as well, but they were often static characters that were reacting to a new crisis each time. Discovery flipped the switch hard and went all in on serialization and character development. Every season the characters change and grow, so much so that they did a really shit flashback to what their characters were like about halfway through Season 5. The characters were fleshed out by the worldbuilding and they themselves fleshed it out.

In Season 1 and 2 they were relatively constrained about what they could world build but they still did their best. They expanded on the engagements with the Klingons (which annoyed some people but I enjoyed), expanded on Prime Pike for the first time since TOS, they finally gave Number One a name, they expanded on the childhood with Sarek that Spock had and his relationship with his human mother that he's hinted at, expanded more on Section 31 and expanded further on the Terran Empire. They developed an entirely new race in Saru and developed a whole culture around him that stretches across multiple seasons. Then they went to the future where they have more free reign and went nuts with developing incredible looking ships and insane tech and new worlds and new empires and elaborating on cultures not seen since TNG.

How is any of that second fiddle when every bit of that expansion was the driving force of each season?

I see these complaints all the time and I don't understand what y'all are talking about, especially when every other Trek show is guilty of the same 'crimes'.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 23 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Maybe I can help you understand a bit where viewers like me are me coming from. I do see where people who really enjoy the show get it from, as they usually like it for the same reasons I do, but the stuff that for me kick me out of my immersion, just doesn't for them.

How is any of that second fiddle when every bit of that expansion was the driving force of each season?

I mean, that stuff is the reason I like a lot of Discovery.

But world-building and character development isn't just "going nuts" with expansion and imagination. All of that stuff, which there is a lot of, didn't feel properly thought out and planned to me. It was a barrage of ideas, very few of which landed for me. I can't even pull examples out of my head because it just didn't stay with me.

You point out some of the good ones, and that's the stuff I'm still begging for more of.

In my viewing, the only thing each season left me with really, was whatever big central plot element it had. So yes, the good ended up second fiddle to that. I would have preferred the show not work that way.

As mentioned, every show features a primary ship that ends up solving the conflicts or being a MAJOR player in it.

Another way to put it might be that other treks don't make their main ships feel like an inanimate Mary Sue? Or not as much. I don't mind the spore drive, I think it's cool af (even as to this day I'm iffy on the in-universe science it canonizes). Obviously the main ship and cast of a trek will somehow be part of major events, but disco never pulled that off without feeling contrived as hell to me.

I think that's why you see people comment this a lot. Discos writing has a "forced" tone to it that not everyone seems to notice. Perhaps best exemplified by the way characters will burst into tears way more than in most media. Makes me think of the Robot Devils criticism in futurama.

Even as the performances are competent, it's such a blatant attempt to pull at the viewers heartstrings it made me frustrated and thereby unable to stay immersed in what the character was feeling. Like the Robot Devil, rather then remaining engrossed, "that makes me angry". I can still see and appreciate the arc of the character, but the execution sabotages my ability to remain invested.

The same kind of thing would happen with where the ship was going, what would happen there, etc.

Again, overall, I enjoy the show. And while I know a lot of people suffer a similar experience to mine, I think the issues I run into when watching the show just don't register for others. Like how you're able to completely explain away my problems through the way you experience it.

I can totally see how the show would shine if you just rearrange the parts I experience as second fiddle into it's primary appeal. I just can't do that when watching the show.

[-] CheeryLBottom@lemmy.world 13 points 1 week ago

Your comments put into words how I felt about the show. It was one major calamity after another. I might go back and finish because of Stamets, Culber (love Wilson Cruz), and everyone else.

I do like Strange New Worlds a lot. It is less frenetic

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[-] model_tar_gz@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago

Geordi is great. I love him.

I love a LOT of the characters on TNG, but I just found the story arcs it ended up telling very... Overblown.

Did the Enterprise-D really have to save the literal galaxy every season? And skip across time so it could be placed into a pivotal role in every era?

Not a single time, not once, did the Enterprise-D feel like just another ship in the fleet. It was always THE ship.

Seasons 3-4 are still the best IMO, with Picard being assimilated and liberated and wrestling with his new dual-identity as Locutus. Worf leaving Starfleet and being instrumental in Gowron’s ascension. The story felt right. But then the ship and crew just kept being extraordinary not just every season, but in every tiny moment.

I really love all the worldbuilding in Trek, but in TNG that always played second fiddle to whatever crisis was going on, which the ENT-D would then inevitably resolve. It was yawn-inducing to me.

Even as I adored lots of the small stuff the series did with the style, characters, and world.

Like Geordi!

[-] thepreciousboar@lemm.ee 14 points 1 week ago

I don't really think that's the same thing. The enterprise D was the flagship of the federation. It was THE ship and was given important mission, but it didn't save the entire literal galaxy in it's own. It had whacky adventure, did a lot of first contacts, fought important battles. But discovery single handedly solved galaxy level menaces and fought against entire alien fleets, all without very little help. That just doesn't make any sense

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I'm really sorry you didn't enjoy everything about the series, but your subjective experience is what it is.

I won't belittle it by superficially rehashing your words to apply them to something else.

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[-] match@pawb.social 8 points 1 week ago

The most stinging part is Prodigy, the literal kid's show, takes a similar story arc and doesn't make it all about their special magic research ship.

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[-] elephantium@lemmy.world 46 points 1 week ago

Ah, canon, or the word we use to describe which made-up story is more real than the other made-up stories!

[-] FlatFootFox@lemmy.world 26 points 1 week ago

Modern Star Trek has its ups and downs. I’m just glad there’s so much of it. Discovery can have a weird National Treasure season, and Picard can have a bumpy Covid year, but there’s probably something interesting going on in Lower Decks or Strange New Worlds. (Or vice versa.)

I’m just happy characters like Stamets weren’t a one off experiment. It’s delightful to see queer folk continue to pop up in the main cast of other shows.

[-] match@pawb.social 15 points 1 week ago

This analogy doesn't work because Lower Decks never misses, making it the only star trek with no bad seasons

[-] FlatFootFox@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago

Lower Decks never misses unless you’re one of those folks with the Trek equivalent of the cilantro soap gene who just can’t get on board with an animated comedy show.

[-] aeronmelon@lemmy.world 26 points 1 week ago

I have two opinions that have not changed since 2016:

First, Discovery, as Star Trek and as science fiction in general, is terrible. Great ideas destroyed by some of the worst writing and direction in the industry.

I will not be taking any questions.

And second, in spite of that, Paul Stamets as a character is one of my favorite in Star Trek. (After the shrooms mellowed him out, of course.)

I'm glad you're sticking with your nick, it suits you and it's a good one to have.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 22 points 1 week ago

Doesn’t hurt as much as LD confirming that Threshold wasn’t just Tom Paris’ fever dream.

[-] samus12345@lemmy.world 14 points 1 week ago

LD takes sadistic pleasure in making sure to confirm all the worst episodes are canon.

[-] unlawfulbooger 20 points 1 week ago

Hell yeah dude!

All the characters in disco are amazing, it’s the main plot that gets ridiculous sometimes.

Don’t let bad writing ruin a great cast!

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 9 points 1 week ago

I mean i'm not a fan of the series as a whole but i'm absolutely here for psycho dwight harry mud

[-] AppleTea@lemmy.zip 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

i feel like the answer to what is and isn't canon can be summed up with;

Why do the klingons look different?

They always looked like that, you just didn't notice before.

Canon has always been squishy. The Eugenics Wars takes place in the nineteen-nineties... oh but didn't Voyager's crew visit our nineties? Plus, DISCO had that Elon Musk name drop.

...so the timeline floats up as the present day does. Canon is just a vague sense of the things everyone agrees on.

Personally,


I really dislike the fungus engine. You expect me to believe the Federation developed instant, consequence free warp but gave up on using it on literally any other ship? Silly. Very silly. Oh, but the precursor civilization doing a galaxy wide Genesis project is somehow an unimaginable technological feat.

And yes, I know STE covers the klingon flu. I just think They always looked like that was more elegant.

I liked the SNW temporal cold war explanation.

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[-] Crackhappy@lemmy.world 16 points 1 week ago

I like a lot of the characters. I just dislike the plot and writing. Stamets fucks.

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[-] noxy@yiffit.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I really enjoyed most of Discovery. Especially all the genuine queer representation, that shit was overdue. And Michael is a hell of a character, great but flawed and so on.

I just wish the spore drive didn't require the ship to spin around and make silly noises. That alone is responsible for a good 50% of the cringing I did while watching the series.

Doesn't hold a candle to DS9 in most respects tho, which I started rewatching after getting two episodes into the final season of Discovery

[-] UnrepententProcrastinator@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Well I haven't even looked at it yet. The feedback of it from you guys is so bad I started deep space nine a second time before I went to discovery.

[-] the_crotch@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 days ago

If you haven't seen Babylon 5, give that a shot. It's great. It's gritty like the good episodes of ds9 with none of the fluff.

[-] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago

AAaaargghh! Medical emergency!

Give me 20 units of TOS immediately

[-] AlexisFR@jlai.lu 9 points 1 week ago

Not for long tough. they only have to "Kelvin" the 31st century timeline.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 7 points 1 week ago

32nd. Also no clue what you're talking about. Either you're suggesting that something from the 'real' Prime Universe is gonna breakthrough into the 32nd century or that it's going to be retroactively made into a split timeline, a thing that never happened to the Kelvin movies as being an alternate timeline was the literal point of the movie.

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[-] satanmat@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago

Stamets. Both you and the character rock.
The first time I tried to watch D I wasn’t sure; but the second time through he has really grown on me.
You and the stuff you’ve said on here as well. You seem like a hoopy frood

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

<3

Discovery isn't for everyone but that's fine. Not every Trek is going to hit you right. Not everyone is going to enjoy every piece of media. Some things are made for other groups of people. Discovery happens to fall in that category but it's just as much a part of Trek as DS9 and TNG.

The Trek universe exists with so much diversity, from the people to the planets. Why can't the shows?

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[-] criitz@reddthat.com 7 points 1 week ago

Thank God for head canon

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this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2024
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