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[-] frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 196 points 7 months ago

No. But physical proof is not the standard we use for determining someone's historical existence.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 68 points 7 months ago

Literary proof is, but also doesn't exist for Jesus Christ.

There's a few mentions of just a "Jesus" but its not like no one else was named Jesus, and those don't really make any mention of him being remarkable in any way.

There's just no evidence

[-] SorteKanin@feddit.dk 74 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

AFAIK most historians/scholars agree that Jesus was a real person (even if a lot of the Bible's claims about what he did are not true). But I'm not a historian. What are you basing your opinion on?

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[-] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 53 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

There exists documented proof in many bits of literature from around 200 BCE to around 100 CE of numerous different figures in what is called 'Jewish Apocalypticism', basically a small in number but persistent phenomenon of Jews in and around what was for most of that time the Roman province of Palestine, preaching that the end would come, that God or a Messiah would return or arise and basically liberate the region and install a Godly Kingdom, usually after or as part of other fantastical events.

Jesus was one of many of these Jewish Apocalypticists. Much like the rest of the movement's key figures, they were wrong, and their lives were greatly exaggerated in either their writings or writings about them or inspired by them.

This seems to be the (extremely condensed) opinion of most Biblical Scholars.

There are a very small number of modern Biblical Scholars that are 'Mythicists' of some kind, who believe that Jesus was completely fictional and wholly invented by certain people or groups.

This is an unpopular view amongst scholars and historians of that time and region, as most believe it more plausible that Jesus was just another example of a radical Jewish Apocalyptic preacher, which again, was fairly common for roughly 300 years in that region.

Its like how if you go to a big city theres always that one guy with a megaphone preaching imminent doom. 99% of people think this is silly and ignore them, but tons of people know that people like them exist and do have small followings.

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[-] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 20 points 7 months ago

There’s just no evidence

I have a pet peeve about this phrase. A) yes there is. B) that's not the standard, e.g. it would be incorrect to say there's no evidence aliens abduct and probe people: there are eyewitness accounts

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 17 points 7 months ago

A) yes there is.

I don't believe that, and since it's impossible to show evidence something doesn't exist, the people claiming evidence Jesus existed is gonna have to do some linking...

that’s not the standard

You mean evidence?

Evidence isn't the standard for things existing?

What exactly is the standard in your mind for whether a historical figure existed?

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Evidence isn't the standard for things existing?

What exactly is the standard in your mind for whether a historical figure existed?

Hard evidence has never been the standard for proof that a historical figure existed. Corroborating records are. It's great if you can find some hard evidence, but if that was the standard then most people in history wouldn't have any historical proof of their existence. And even when there is a corpse, we still rely on burial records to be certain that the corpse is who we think it is. Or if there are letters, we can't confirm they were written by the same person we think they were.

Like a third of the bible as well as several contemporary documents all point to the existence of a guy named something like Joshua (which we now translate as Jesus) who traveled around Palestine preaching and was crucified in around 33AD. There are plenty of historical figures who we mostly agree existed despite having approximately the same amount of proof as for Jesus.

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[-] BlowMe@lemmy.world 17 points 7 months ago

I'm pretty sure without the fossilised bones we would think dinosaurs weren't a thing

[-] Eczpurt@lemmy.world 87 points 7 months ago

Its easy to put bones together and say that it existed but there's no way to guarantee "these are certified bones of Jim the stegosaurus, religious figure"

[-] BlowMe@lemmy.world 56 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Are you doubting about the existence of our Lord Jim the stegosaurus?

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[-] Tramort@programming.dev 41 points 7 months ago

Bones prove you existed.

But the absence of bones does not mean that you didn't.

[-] SonicDeathTaco@lemm.ee 17 points 7 months ago

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 35 points 7 months ago

That's because there weren't multiple people around to write down what they saw. You're confusing paleontology and history. They have very different standards for proof.

There are tons of historical figures for whom we have no physical evidence. But we have tons of written evidence from people who all experienced those people.

[-] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 27 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

History is known by:

  • Archæological evidence

  • Oral interviews with eyewitnesses

  • Texts

  • Archæogenetics

  • Historical linguistics

  • Myth (euhemerism)

  • Maybe some others I'm forgetting

Dino-history isn't comparable to tthe literate Roman period.

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[-] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 107 points 7 months ago

What do you mean by physical proof?

Some history is known by digging up physical stones n bones. Some is known by digging up texts.

There are multiple texts dated to the 1st century that all corroborate the story that a person called Jesus was crucified around 33AD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

[-] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 57 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's weird how many people in this thread are vaguely debating the validity of the historical research into this question when one person has posted a link to a well cited article on this very very heavily studied subject.

There's even a link to a well cited article examining the skepticism of the historicity of Jesus: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory

I don't feel compelled to argue an interpretation. The facts are well documented and their interpretations by experts available. What anyone chooses to do with these are of no real concern to me.

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[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 34 points 7 months ago

The evidence isn't even that strong, there i just aren't that many people willing to risk becoming a pariah to dispute them.

If you are a Christian, there is no doubt Jesus existed. Any oblique reference to a rabbi who was persecuted hundreds years ago is considered evidence that Jesus existed. But no contemporaneous documentation exists.

If you're not a Christian, debunking all of those vague references that might be proof of a Jewish leader named Jesus just isn't particularly important, won't persuade anyone who believes Jesus was(is) God, and will paint a target on your back for terrorists.

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[-] Psiczar@aussie.zone 100 points 7 months ago

As an atheist I believe Jesus existed, I just don’t think he was the son of god or that he was resurrected.

It would have been far easier to start a religion around a real man with actual followers than if he was a figment of someone’s imagination.

[-] distantsounds@lemmy.world 52 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I like to picture my Jesus as a desert hippie that people liked and told tall tales of in order to give people living in that harsh environment some hope and meaning.

[-] Bdtrngl@lemmy.world 29 points 7 months ago

I like to think of Jesus with like giant eagles wings and singing lead vocals for lynyrd skynyrd with like an Angel Band, and I'm in the front row, and I'm hammered drunk.

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[-] 800XL@lemmy.world 42 points 7 months ago

IIRC, the religion didn't get anywhere is Palestine after Jesus supposedly died and it wasn't until decades later that it picked up in and around Greece thanks to Paul, but no one was around that saw any of the events attributed to Jesus - it was all heresay.

I mean the bible is how many pages and how much of it actually takes place during Jesus's life? And what is the timespan of the small part that does? Like a year? And the 4 gospels that talk about it are all rehashings of the same stories (more or less) and even contradict each other at times.

That's a story with a lot of gaps and plot holes to base a belief system around - and that doesn't even include all the baggage and hate that comes along with it.

People nowadays lose their mind and make death threats to the creators of stories that don't fix or create new plot holes in canon. And we're supposed to smile, nod, and happily accept one of the worst constructed stories ever just because some old white men that live the opposite way they tell us to live say so?

[-] Meron35@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

Religion is the OG fandom war

[-] Shard@lemmy.world 85 points 7 months ago

Physical proof? No. But if that's the criterion for proof that someone existed, then that mean 90% of historical figures can't be proven to have existed. We don't have the remains of Alexander the Great or any artefacts we can be sure are his. We have no remnants of Plato, none of his original writings remain.

Did a person name Jesus live sometime during the first century AD? Scholars are fairly certain of that. We do have textual evidence other than the bible that points to his existence.

It is highly unlikely that he was anything like the person written about in the bible. He was likely one of many radical apocalyptic prophets of the time.

We don't have too many details about his life but because of something called the criterion of embarrassment we have good reason to believe he was baptized by a man named John the Baptist and was later crucified. (i.e. most burgeoning religions seeking legitimacy don't typically invent stories that are embarrassing to their deity)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[-] KneeTitts@lemmy.world 28 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

then that mean 90% of historical figures can’t be proven to have existed

Well for most of those we tend to use independent verification for their existence. And in the case of jesus, we have literally zero Credible examples of independent verification.

[-] aidan@lemmy.world 30 points 7 months ago

And in the case of jesus, we have literally zero independent verification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

[-] KneeTitts@lemmy.world 25 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Even assuming the passage is totally genuine, two fires had destroyed much in the way of official documents Tacitus had to work with and it is unlikely that he would sift through what he did have to find the record of an obscure crucifixion, which suggests that Tacitus was repeating an urban myth whose source was likely the Christians themselves,[3]:344 especially since Tacitus was writing at a time when at least the three synoptic gospels are thought to already have been in circulation.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tacitus

According to Bart Ehrman, Josephus' passage about Jesus was altered by a Christian scribe, including the reference to Jesus as the Messiah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Scholars have differing opinions on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in the passage to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate.[15][30] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic.

Respected Christian scholar R. T. France, for example, does not believe that the Tacitus passage provides sufficient independent testimony for the existence of Jesus [Franc.EvJ, 23] and agrees with G. A. Wells that the citation is of little value

A. The first line of the Tacitus passage says Chrestians, not Christians.

Suetonius says Chrestus was personally starting trouble in Rome during the reign of Claudius.

Suetonius is writing years after Tacitus yet doesn't mention that Chrestus died.

So Chrestus can't be Jesus because it's the wrong decade, wrong continent and missing a death.

B. The second line in Tacitus that mentions Christ and his death was never noticed until after the mid-fourth century. So this second line is fake.

P.S. Even if the second line was somehow authentic, the information would have come from Christians. This would be the equivalent of deriving Abraham's biography by talking to Muslims.

This is why Bart Ehrman specifically dismisses Tacitus and Josephus. As do most other biblical scholars.

In the immortal words of Christopher Hitchens, if this is all you got, you are holding an empty bag.

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[-] Shard@lemmy.world 25 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

If you mean Jesus as described word for word in the bible? Yes you are right. Such a mythical figure never existed.

A man name Jesus from the first century AD? Who preached in the Levant? Who was baptized by a man named John and was later crucified? There is good enough evidence of such a person existing. This isn't even a debated question among new testament scholars anymore.

I see you are familiar with Bart Ehrman, Even he doesn't dispute that a historical Jesus existed.

https://youtu.be/43mDuIN5-ww

Here's an even deeper dive from Bart Ehrman.

https://youtu.be/4CD5DwrgWJ4

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[-] Joshi@aussie.zone 51 points 7 months ago

I'm by no means an expert but I was briefly obsessed with comparative religion over a decade ago and I don't think anyone has given a great answer, I believe my answer is correct but I don't have time for research beyond checking a couple of details.

As a few people have mentioned there is little physical evidence for even the most notable individuals from that time period and it's not reasonable to expect any for Jesus.

In terms of literary evidence there is exactly 1 historian who is roughly contemporary and mentions Jesus. Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus mentions him twice, once briefly telling the story of his crucifixion and resurrection. The second is a mention in passing when discussing the brother of Jesus delivering criminals to be stoned.

I think it is reasonable to conclude that a Jewish spiritual leader with a name something like Jesus Christ probably existed and that not long after his death miracles are being attributed to him.

It is also worth noting the historical context of the recent emergence of Rabbinical Judaism and the overabundance of other leaders who were claimed to be Messiahs, many of whom we also know about primarily(actually I think only) from Josephus.

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[-] jeena@piefed.jeena.net 42 points 7 months ago

The thing is that compared to other historical people we kid of have similar evidence. Like we have records of Socrates existing and we have records of some Joshua existing.

The difference is that nobody claims that Socrates was a fantastical god being who defied death, which is a extraordinary claim, we just say he was a very smart guy, we se very smart guys on a daily basis, nothing special with that so we can just believe it and even if we are wrong it has no real life implications.

For the Joshua guy, that's quite a different story. The claims about him are extraordinary and need extraordinary evidence. But we only have normal evidence. If the claims about him were true it would contradict almost everything we think we know about the universe, how it behaves, etc.

So again, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 43 points 7 months ago

The difference is that nobody claims that Socrates was a fantastical god being who defied death,

To use a more modern example, pretty much everyone agrees that Grigori Rasputin was a real person who played a crucial role in the court of the last Czar of Russia.

But there are some positively wild and unexplainable stories that have a decent amount of corroborating evidence that they happened. The story about him healing the prince via a phone call sounds like actual magic. However we all know magic isn't real, there is definitely some kind of logical explanation. But that explanation is lost to time.

So where do historians land on Rasputin? Well, there was definitely a guy called Rasputin. Some of the stories about him are true. Some are probably false or exaggerated. There isn't even a consensus on what colour the dude's eyes were. But that doesn't mean we dispute his existence.

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[-] alekwithak@lemmy.world 34 points 7 months ago

The new testament stories were written well over a hundred years after. That would be like someone today writing an account of the civil war based solely on stories.

[-] hungryphrog 23 points 7 months ago

Ah yes, the civil war. Which one??

[-] TheEighthDoctor@lemmy.world 22 points 7 months ago
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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 33 points 7 months ago

I have said this many times-

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if there was a "real" Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible, the Jesus that is worshiped is an impossibility. A fiction. His life is full of details that defy basic biological and physical laws. On top of that, nothing he supposedly said was written down at the time, so we have no idea if what is recorded to have been his sayings in the Bible are things he actually said.

I always relate it to Ian Fleming having a schoolchum who's father's name was Ernst Stavro Bloefeld. So was there a real Ernst Stavro Bloefeld? Yes. Was he a supervillain fighting the world's greatest secret agent? No.

[-] MadBob@feddit.nl 17 points 7 months ago

I don't think this answer is really in the spirit of "no stupid questions".

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[-] harrys_balzac@lemmy.dbzer0.com 28 points 7 months ago

There is no proof outside of the Bible and some other writings. Even those mentions seem to have occurred well after Jesus supposedly lived.

In terms of non-literary proof, there isn't anything credible.

There's more evidence that King David existed.

[-] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 30 points 7 months ago

Chances are he was more like a cult leader it wasn’t until a decade or two after his death that things really got into full swing, so chances are the actual Jesus would be quite surprised by everything “he” did.

But there were a lot of Jewish mystics cropping up at the time so it’s not impossible or even implausible for some one vaguely matching the description to have existed.

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[-] adespoton@lemmy.ca 15 points 7 months ago

You realize that a significant portion of the bible is the collected letters and works that were at the time (that it was assembled) considered credible, right?

There’s a period of around 80 years that’s pretty hard to account for, but unlike the four gospels where there’s little corroborating evidence that tracks back into that 80 year period, the epistolary works are pretty likely to be authentic. They also reference a bunch of other letters that didn’t survive, something that tends to make them more likely authentic than not. And they involve people who were eyewitnesses of a man named Jesus (or Joshua or Yeshua if you prefer) and his younger (step) brothers.

The rest of the statements about him were solidified by 80 years or so after his death, but all the accounts don’t quite line up — which is actually a good argument for them being based on actual events.

So while there may be plenty of room for debate as to how much of the biblical teachings actually originated with a man named Jesus, his actual existence seems more evident than, say, Shakespeare.

[-] JesterIzDead@lemm.ee 21 points 7 months ago

The mental gymnastics is palpable. That things don’t line up is evidence they’re true? And because people believed it at the time it must be credible? Did a guy really live in the belly of a whale for three days simply because some simpletons believed it?

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[-] nednobbins@lemm.ee 23 points 7 months ago

The question is typically described as "the historicity of Jesus". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

There are similar debates for other famous ancient figures.

The general academic consensus on Jesus (and many similar figures) is that they did exist and many of the details have been fictionalized.

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[-] DeLacue@lemmy.world 22 points 7 months ago

Christianity exists. Religions don't tend to spring up from nowhere. Every myth has its nugget of truth. Was there a preacher back then whose followers later spread around the world? Almost certainly. Where else could Christianity have come from?

Was he the son of god though? Was he capable of all the miracles the bible claims? Is the god he preached even real? There is no evidence that the answer to these three questions is anything but no I'm afraid.

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[-] TootSweet@lemmy.world 22 points 7 months ago

Nope. But that's also not as big a deal as a lot of folks make it.

Also, he's far from the only important(?) historical(?) figure we can't prove ever existed.

[-] Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 20 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

No, there's barely any physical evidence that anyone a few hundred years ago existed.

But if writing is enough, there are some. Tacitus basically said: "Nero blamed the Christians, followers of that Guy called Jesus who Pilatus executed a few decades ago."

Wikipedia at least says both his Baptism and crucifixion are not disputed by historians.

[-] utopiah@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

That's not the real question though. The real question is rather are there any "real physical proof" that Jesus had literally anything special that is in itself being the "son of God" or anything related to religion.

Anybody (sadly) can be crucified, especially during a period where it is trendy. Anybody can walk through part of the desert. Anybody can organize a meal, give a speech, etc.

Even if it's done exceptionally well, that does not make it special in the sense of being the proof of anything religious. We all have friends with unique talents, and social media helped us discovered that there are so many more of those around the entire world, but nobody in their right mind would claim that because Eminem can sing words intelligibly faster than the vast majority of people he is the son of "God".

I also read a book about a decade ago (unfortunately didn't write down notes about it so can't find the name back) on the history of religion, from polytheism to monotheism, and it was quite interesting. If I remember correctly one way to interpret it was through the lens of religions maintaining themselves over time and space, which could include growing to a sufficient size in terms of devout adepts. The point being that veracity was not part of the equation.

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[-] Pm_me_girl_dick@lemmyf.uk 18 points 7 months ago

Girl gets married

Girl gets shitfaced and sleeps with someone other than her husband

Girl is pregnant!

Girl makes up some dumb shit to avoid jealous rage

Shit gets waaaaay out of hand.

There are many Jesus's in the world.

[-] MehBlah@lemmy.world 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

A far more likely explanation for the age and time was that she was raped.

Not that things have changed much.

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[-] nadiaraven@lemmy.world 17 points 7 months ago

The answers here are absolutely crazy. Go find some credible biblical scholars (ones whose jobs are not dependent on statements of faith) like Bart ehrman and read what they say. My understanding is that most scholars agree that Jesus existed, and even that he was crucified. Don't trust lemmy, don't even trust me, go find the experts, read what they say, and decide for yourself.

[-] 7uWqKj@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

No. He is not a historical figure like, say, Muhammad or Caesar.

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this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
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