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submitted 6 months ago by BmeBenji@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

Body positivity is such a strange concept to me. There's efforts to reclaim words while simultaneously calling them bad if used as an insult. Ideally, people wouldn't be offended by someone describing their body with common descriptors, but socially there is so much value attributed to certain body types that it's almost impossible to avoid having an emotional response of some kind to various descriptors.

For example, It's not bad to be fat, but calling someone "fat" is almost universally considered a bad thing. The same definitely seems to go for the idea of being "short."

I'm asking this question because I can't put my finger on why but something seems to be different about the use of the term "short" from the use of the term "fat." I think that part of it is how, to me at least, the term "fat" is so generic and hard to nail down to a discrete definition, implying that the word really doesn't have a clear connection to reality. On the other hand, height is a single-dimensional number. You either are above a certain threshold, or you aren't.

I recently learned that May 6th to May 10th is "short king week" because it's 5'6" to 5'10" which then prompted me to search for the origins of "short king" and apparently the person most-credited with popularizing the term is Jaboukie Young-White who claims the term was meant to include all men under 6 feet tall. The average adult male height is 5'9" leaving men considered roughly average to be called "short" which is still considered an insult by many.

I dunno. As a term that was intended to champion body positivity compared with how the term is actually used, what do you think of "short king?"

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[-] oxjox@lemmy.ml 64 points 6 months ago

I'm 5'6" and find the term childish and insulting. It's not the short part, it's the king part. I am not a king, I'm a regular guy working a regular job.

"Body positivity" is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles. Twisting reality to make someone comfortable is detrimental to their physical and mental health.

I don't understand the reasoning but, across the board, it seems today's culture is very quick to accept literal delusions in place of reality for the sake of feelings and "mental well being".

[-] EssentialNPC@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I think that you have internalized a version of body positivity that lies on the most extreme end of what is meant by that phrase. Body positivity - be comfortable with who you are and do not put down on others due to their body.

The odds are that I am significantly fatter than you. The odds also favor that I am significantly stronger than you, even if you lift weights. I can also probably walk all day much farther than you can.

Would it be healthier if I lose body fat? Absolutely. Have I tried for 20 years to do that? Yes. I am not ignorant regarding nutrition. I am not lazy. I am not overall lacking willpower. I am fat but otherwise healthy.

Body positively means that my doctor treats my body fat as what it is - one aspect of my overall health. He does not assume that every problem I have is because I am fat, even though changing that would improve some aspects of my health.

Body positively also means that I am not going to hide when I go to the beach. I am going to go shirtless and enjoy myself. If you do not find me sexually attractive, that is fine. If you are going to shame or mock me for my body fat, then you are an asshole. If I catch wind of you mocking me, I will quietly estimate how many times your bodyweight I will deadlift on Monday. If you choose to mock the scars that cover parts of my body from extreme, life-saving surgery, I may feel the need to firmly educate you on exactly what sort of asshole you are.

Body positively often conjures the image of a morbidly obese girl on OnlyFans who lets people pay to watch her binge and intentionally get fatter while she says being purposefully inactive is just as healthy as hitting the gym. The real versions of that person are extremely rare, but their radicalism, vociferous nature, and platform make their voices much louder in comparison. Their argument is also easy to find flaw with and mock, so they get used as if they are a typical example of body positivity.

You are right in that the woman I describe above needs help and is not behaving in a safe or healthy way. I also understand why you might think that is the norm. She is not, though, and I would encourage you to look deeper at the meaning of the "movement."


The "you" above is generic and based on broad assumptions. You, the reader, might be stronger than me and have way more endurance than me. You also might be fatter than I am. The odds are very good that you are also not an asshole. My point was to call out variances from the norm as convenient examples, of which I have plenty in both directions.

[-] oxjox@lemmy.ml 12 points 6 months ago

If you’re a hundred pounds overweight, you should not be comfortable with who you are. People who support or celebrate morbid obesity are bad people.

[-] EssentialNPC@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

It does not appear that you are really listening to others to do much as commenting pithy things, and I am not sure if you have some specific reason for this or if you are just picking fights.

But let's still break this down. Literally no one here is talking about celebrating morbid obesity. That is pretty much a straw man at this point.

Morbidly obese people should be able to look in the mirror and think to themselves, "I look good today!" They should be allowed to go out without worry that someone will make fun of them. They should be able to go to the doctor and be heard instead of the doctor assuming every health problem is only caused by obesity.

If you disagree with the above statements, please be very clear as to why. Everybody deserves quality medical care from their physician. Everybody deserves to not hate themselves. Everybody deserves to not be kicked for their appearance.

No one is saying, "Woo-hoo! Try to be so fat it harms your health!" I would suggest you read up on the science of weight loss and why so many little are obese these days. There is not universal consensus, but there is general agreement that the deck is highly stacked against many people, and extra body fat is not a simple condition to deal with in many circumstances.

People should try to lead the healthiest lifestyle they are reasonably able. No one is stating otherwise.

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[-] Aussiemandeus@aussie.zone 7 points 6 months ago

Yeah, shits me to tears that people think it's OK,

I lost 35kgs through diet exercise etc and I felt absolutely amazing at the 30kg loss mark.

Didn't think I felt bad at 125kg at 6ft tall when I hit 95 I felt amazing. Knees joints life everything easy.

Getting down to 90 on strict diet was hard and life just wasn't fun anymore. Sure 6pack was cool and all but just no fun. I'm not blessed with those skinny genetics.

Anyone who's fat and not been skinny in their adult life shouldn't think they're healthy and happy because everything is better when you're actually at a healthy weight.

[-] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 18 points 6 months ago

I agree that we should strive for people to be healthy. But there's a lot of evidence to suggest that shame not only is ineffective but can actually have the opposite effect.

Besides, I think you're being pretty reductive. Health includes both physical and mental, we should take steps to improve both of these. And I get the sense that you specifically take issue with body positivity specifically around fat people, as I assume you don't think being short or tall is unhealthy. In which case, you're ignoring the economics of it (at least in America, there are a ton of government subsidies for corn, incentivizing businesses to load up our food with corn syrup).

The issue is complex and so would any solutions. At least in America, we need to deincentivize the production of unhealthy food, better access to healthcare, and cultural shifts as well. And I'm sure there's a whole lot I'm missing.

[-] oxjox@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago

If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight. Embracing being fat and blaming others is not healthy, it’s delusional.

There’s also a ton of government subsidizes for other fruits and vegetables. Don’t blame the government for your poor eating habits. Learn to prepare real food. It’s healthier, cheaper, and more abundant. You don’t need to deincentivize producing unhealthy food, you just need to choose not to eat it.

This culture of supporting people who are overweight is making us all lose sight of what a healthy lifestyle looks like. As generations spend less time working physically and more time sitting, our diets should be moving towards far less calories. Instead, we’re being made into nothing more than consumers who click a button to have bad food delivered to us while we sit on the couch.

The only complex issue is how we got here. It’s not complex to make healthier choices. I’d argue it’s easier than what we’re doing now. To quote Michael Pollan, “eat food, not too much, mostly plants”.

[-] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 20 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

If you’re ashamed for being overweight, that’s something that should motivate you to lose the weight.

You would think so, but you'd be wrong. As I said before, shaming not only doesn't work but has the opposite effect.

As James Corden said:

If making fun of fat people made them lose weight, there'd be no fat kids in schools.

If you're sincere in your desire to make people healthier, then shame is not the way.

If you're only interested in a feeling of superiority, then carry on I guess.

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[-] BmeBenji@lemm.ee 8 points 6 months ago

Let me preface what I want to say with the fact that I have previously lost half of my bodyweight largely because of a lack of body positivity in my head, and it’s still lacking.

You seem to be of the mind that people who have “unhealthy habits” should be shamed into living a healthier life. Where does that end? Should only people who physically appear to be unhealthy be shamed? Should people who have actual unhealthy bodies be shamed? Should people who have invisible unhealthy habits like hidden bulimia be shamed? Should people who have unhealthy mental conditions that are only diagnosable by experts be shamed?

I’m not being sarcastic or rhetorical, I’m genuinely curious where the line should be drawn. Some people are physically incapable of losing weight. Some people are perfectly healthy despite appearing overweight, yet they are treated like less valuable people because they don’t conform to beauty standards. Some people are notably ill despite fitting conventional beauty standards.

Body positivity is about eliminating social standards of beauty that ignore health, not about making unhealthy people think they’re better off being unhealthy. Furthermore, health is absolutely a luxury for many people. When survival is expensive, surviving with the time and money to take care of your body can be unattainable

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[-] SteposVenzny@beehaw.org 9 points 6 months ago

Do you think short people are living an unhealthy lifestyle?

[-] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

Body positivity" is garbage. People should be honest and support healthy lifestyles

Feels like you are falling in to the same critism trap that catches "Pride" events, lots of people say that they can be proud of lots of things, not nessecarily an indentity or sexuality.

But pride is more about not feeling shame for things you can't control. Body positivity is about way more than overweight people, but being happy of who you are regardless of any stigma.

It's not my place to say people should like "short kings", I truly couldnt care less about individuals liking or disliking a given term. I just feel your reasoning would be better built upon infantalizing without attacking people that are fidng zen outside of unfair cultural stigma.

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[-] Stern@lemmy.world 51 points 6 months ago

I recall a tweet from a ways back-

sometimes you have to be a bit mentally ill to get mentally well so if thinking naruto would be proud of you for brushing your teeth is what gets you to brush your teeth well grab that toothbrush dattebayo

If calling yourself a short king lets you kick your insecurities ass well then here's your crown my dude 👑

[-] TheAlbatross 43 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I'm a man, I'm 5'5" and I'm far beyond caring about my height. It bothered me in high school but I found out shortly after it really doesn't matter that much if you carry yourself confidently.

That said, I've seen a number of other cis men find confidence in themselves by using short king self referentially and hearing people they want to date celebrate "short kings", so it seems to be a useful term. I've also seen a number of trans men find it to be a confidence boosting term, combating the dysmorphia of their perceived height deficiency.

I'll revel in such things with my friends for laughs, but, ultimately, it doesn't do much for me, but I like seeing what it's done for others.

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[-] JokeDeity@lemm.ee 18 points 6 months ago

I'm on the tall side of average (tall to some, average to others, short to few), and to me it's always sounded like it's mocking short guys, and if I were short I don't think I'd want to be called that.

[-] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 16 points 6 months ago

if you highlight a feature as "now its positive", what you're actually saying "normally it's negative"

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[-] RBWells@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

It's silly. And 5'10" isn't short for a guy, and I say that as a tall lady. I don't think most guys like feeling short, that's problematic in itself but yeah, as you say, I would feel "short king" a backhanded compliment.

In general I think worrying about things people didn't choose and can't change is the worst. I feel slightly different about worrying about weight, but that's my own baggage.

[-] Dkarma@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago

King / queen is insta cringe

[-] shasta@lemm.ee 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I'm a relatively short guy at 5'6". My take on this is firstly that I dislike being called "king" because it sounds patronizing, especially by someone who knows nothing about me (that just feels insincere). Secondly, I'm comfortable, even happy, with my height. There have been many times I've been glad that I wasn't taller. It's kinda funny watching taller folks hitting their heads on things and complaining about cars being too small.

With my shortness being accepted by myself, someone else randomly pointing it out by explicitly calling me a "short king" in an effort to promote body positivity makes me think that in order for them to be recognizing shortness as a potentially negative trait means they likely thought of it as a negative in the past and are now patting themselves on the backs for being "enlightened" and subtly shaming others who still haven't "evolved" to their level. It feels like less of a compliment and more of a circle jerk.

Also, I don't feel like shortness needs any championing. Going back to the topic of obesity in the discorse of body positivity, I think it's a great idea to treat people as people regardless of weight. But I think the implied premise stated by OP is flawed in this regard. I do think being happy with being overweight is different than being happy about being short. There are no apparent benefits to being overweight, since it generally increases risk factors in all kinds of medical issues. With this in mind, body positivity regarding weight should focus on encouraging others to lose weight without shaming them. The same is not true of being short. Besides the impossibility of people making themselves taller even if they wanted to, there's no negative to a person's well-being or quality of life because of it.

I can't remember any time in my life that I've ever been called short as an insult either. This post just seems to be attempting to fix a non-issue. In summary, I would rather no one speak the words "short king" at all. Just go with "you're such a badass" if you wanna give a compliment.

[-] meekah@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

There have been many times I've been glad that I wasn't taller. It's kinda funny watching taller folks hitting their heads on things and complaining about cars being too small.

6'3" guy here. Every time someone says "wow you're tall" I say that it's not that great. 6' is plenty to reach high shelves and stuff like that I think, but I struggle with leg room in public transport. I think that's more annoying than needing a ladder once in a while. Also I often feel my hair touching the roof in smaller cars.

[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 10 points 6 months ago

If someone were to call me a "short king," I would have their name legally changed to "Cellulite Queen" or "The Right High Honorable Sir Shriveldick Pissinbed III" or some other such.

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[-] KRAW@linux.community 10 points 6 months ago

Personally I do not let internet trends affect my behavior out in the real world. Why is that? Because if I use the term "short king" anywhere in the real world, 99% of people won't know what I'm talking about. Until you hear a real person say it (that means not on lemmy, not on twitter, not on dating apps, etc. or people you meet through these platforms) you can assume that there is no real impact to be had there. I think we give way too much credit to the internet for affecting real life trends. Most people don't care about these cute terminologies people come up with, and neither should you. The term was made to get someone attention, not to make short people feel better.

[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 10 points 6 months ago

I'm a 5'7” guy and I absolutely support this kind of monarchism. God save the king.

[-] sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 months ago

5"10 isn't short anyway. I think it's average? "Short king" is trolling 100% of the time. I won't call it gaslighting (a term I do apply to "big dick energy") because it doesn't seek that level of psychological invasiveness. But it's not intended as a compliment. It's trolling. Don't feed the trolls.

[-] nondescripthandle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I dont have a problem with the phrase but I don't think ive ever heard it unironically or outisde of joking situatuons. Which is right about where the state of body positivity for men ends up.

Pro tip. Never tell people that even if someone is an asshole calling them small dicked is body shaming, unless you want all those people to instantly assume you're telling on yourself and then body shame you for that.

[-] Aggravationstation@feddit.uk 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I don't remember women being taller than their partners being that big of a deal, until people making fun of it became a meme on the internet.

The short king thing is just another meme on the internet.

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[-] Grass@sh.itjust.works 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I wouldn't want to be called by any term partly comprised of 'king'. Just call me short.

Also I keep wanting to read it as shortening and start baking.

[-] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 7 points 6 months ago

Oh god, this kind of moral grandstanding is just cringeworthy, let alone as a false concern for others.

It screams "I need the approval of others or I feel bad about my genetics over which I have no control".

If someone doesn't like how I look, oh well, that's life. Seems this is a lesson most people learn in grade school - some people aren't going to like you, you're not going to like some people.

Further, if we're talking about physical attractiveness, that's something all over the place, and something over which we have no control.

Attraction isn't a choice - what you do about it is.

[-] running_ragged@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago

If someone doesn’t like how I look, oh well, that’s life. Seems this is a lesson most people learn in grade school - some people aren’t going to like you, you’re not going to like some people.

You're not entirely wrong, but you're also totally missing the fact that people are 100% judged by stature and not just in attractiveness, but in their value period.

The taller you are, the higher salary people will assume you already are making. During hiring, this means you'll be offered a higher starting salary to try and make the offer more appealing to you.

Here's an article that references the study I'm thinking of. https://merryformoney.com/height-salary/ If you care ,you can maybe dig up the original study somehow.

This sort of bias is pretty inescapable in our culture and will be I think regardless of our language. Preferred body shapes do change over time, even within the span of a single generation. Maybe tying more positive words around these words is part of that change.

[-] AceFuzzLord@lemm.ee 7 points 6 months ago

As someone who is a few inches below average height where I live, I personally wouldn't like being called a "short king". Also, fuck those over 6 foot men for driving up the average height and unintentionally making me have an irrational annoyance because I'm short.

[-] terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 6 months ago

Sorry 😔

It's not all roses up here either. I'm 6'4". Not NBA competitive in height, but well above the average. Finding clothes, shoes etc is a royal pita. Some amusement park rides I can't fit in. Having to duck a lot and having to be generally more aware of the height of doorways and hanging light fixtures. Also having people in stores asking me to grab stuff from upper shelving gets old too.

[-] phorq@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago

I'm 5'4" and the term just makes me cringe. I don't normally think about my height unless someone else brings it up or I need to reach the top shelf, but I don't need encouragement in that case... just a ladder.

[-] TheV2@programming.dev 5 points 6 months ago

I know people mean it well and I respect that. But it's a little indirect insult, when their first reaction is to assume that you feel bad about it and to patronize you.

Of course there are people with that mindset among short dating men who often aggressively blame women's standards. So I try to be not too upset about it.

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this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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