706
submitted 6 months ago by ylai@lemmy.ml to c/technology@lemmy.world

Without paywall: https://archive.ph/0KvTq

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] _number8_@lemmy.world 237 points 6 months ago

the most insulting part of this is 'people' suddenly pretending like we love and always loved the office, when it's been a fundamental symbol of stagnation and boredom and misery in culture ever since they became widespread. NO ONE would voluntary want to spend 5 days in a shitty building after a commute wearing clothes they don't want to with bosses sniffing around their necks all day leaving maybe 4 hrs a day to yourself in your home. 'top talent' or not, everyone deserves to be able to work where they feel most comfortable.

[-] Drusas@kbin.run 131 points 6 months ago

People used to make sardonic jokes about cubicles. Then cubicles disappeared in favor of the open office and somehow the jokes stopped, just as things got worse.

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 87 points 6 months ago

Open Office was a cesspool of disease, even before covid it was problematic:

https://www.passporthealthusa.com/employer-solutions/blog/2020-2-how-do-open-offices-affect-employee-health/

Studies have found that that those who work in open offices are more likely to take short term sick leave or a sick day. Those employees might be using 62% more of their sick days due to the environment. Employees with this office layout are also more prone to headaches and respiratory problems due to weakened immune systems.

[-] mannycalavera@feddit.uk 121 points 6 months ago

Open Office was a cesspool of disease, even before covid it was problematic:

Thankfully enough people realised this and switched to Libre.

[-] toynbee@lemmy.world 21 points 6 months ago

Nerd.

I like you.

[-] Thrashy@lemmy.world 44 points 6 months ago

Through the course of my career I've somehow lost office space as I've ascended the corporate food chain. I had a private office/technician room in my first job out, then had an eight foot cubicle with high walls, then a six foot cubicle with low dividers, and then the pandemic hit. The operations guy at the last place was making noises about a benching arrangement after RTO, like people were going to put up with being elbow to elbow with Chris The Conference Call Yeller and Brenda The Lip Smacking Snacker while Team Loudly Debates Marvel Movie Trivia is yammering away the next row over.

Hell, if it meant getting a space to myself with enough privacy to hear my own thoughts I might consider giving up my current WFH gig. But everybody's obsessed with building awful office hellscapes and I don't have the constitution to put up with that kind of environment.

load more comments (5 replies)
[-] DevCat@lemmy.world 139 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

You give your top talent what they want. The problem is that they hired a consultant to find out what that was. The consultant, knowing on which side his bread was buttered, told the board what they wanted to hear, which is, after all, why they hired a consultant instead of just asking.

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 47 points 6 months ago

It's a balancing act though. A lot of top talent is going to leave either way, so over focusing on them hurts everyone else. Mandatory return to office was a lot more costly than most companies hoped for though. It was essentially a lay-off, but it left companies with pretty much only the bad employees compared to a more traditional approach.

[-] admiralteal@kbin.social 30 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

We can't claim to know it left them with "bad" employees. I think there's vanishingly little evidence that recruiters actually go after the "good" employees effectively -- I'm pretty skeptical that a pro recruiter actually gets you better employees, they just make the process of getting employees way less stressful. We also have no reason to assume that a good or bad employee is correlated in any way with caring about not returning to office -- it's possible very bad employees are just as likely to quit as very good ones. How do you even tell good from bad, anyway?

What this "return to office" stuff definitely DOES do is preferentially retain the most obedient/desperate employees. Which may be part of the goal, along with low-key downsizing.

[-] HubertManne@kbin.social 16 points 6 months ago

I feel like im always explaining to recruiters what it sounds like the role they sent to me is actually looking for.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[-] catloaf@lemm.ee 31 points 6 months ago

Also, when it goes south, they can pin the blame on the consultant instead of themselves.

[-] RozhkiNozhki@lemmy.world 25 points 6 months ago

That's exactly what the consultants are for and hiring them is an easy, low-cost (in the grand scheme of things) way of shifting responsibility aka "I don't want to do any decision making that may and will be detrimental to the company so I will hire an "expert" to do it for me".

[-] SonnyVabitch@lemmy.world 114 points 6 months ago

Forget the cost of travel, if my commute is one hour, that's two per day, ten per week, that's an EXTRA WEEK they demand that I donate of my time to the company each month.

Ain't happening.

[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world 38 points 6 months ago

And it's not even a week off halfway useful time. It's a week of fucking sitting in traffic breathing in exhaust and break fumes.

[-] SonnyVabitch@lemmy.world 19 points 6 months ago

If you drive. If you use public transport you can inhale other people's BO instead.

But yes, if you commute, nobody gains only you lose.

[-] Ragnarok314159@sopuli.xyz 16 points 6 months ago

And it’s not like public transportation (at least here in the USA) is worth a shit, it’s an option of last resort.

It would take me three hours to get to my job using a bus due to the routes. To get home even longer because the buses stop running and I would have to ride my bike at sunset.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 27 points 6 months ago

And on top of it, the commute is costing money, too. Either public transport tickets or fuel and wear an tear on car.

I can so much understand my former coworker. He switched jobs because not only did they pay more, but now he has a five minute commute instead of a one hour one.

[-] Drusas@kbin.run 113 points 6 months ago

My manager didn't care for it when I pointed out that making us go into the office three times per week was equivalent to an approximately $5,000 pay cut. Not including wear and tear on the car.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 39 points 6 months ago

That sounds like a low estimate.

[-] henfredemars@infosec.pub 38 points 6 months ago

If a manager can’t appear useful to their superiors, that’s 100% pay cut for them.

load more comments (5 replies)
[-] Melkath@kbin.social 112 points 6 months ago

My company ordered back to office, and as I was told, I was the only one to say no.

I generate too much value and have tolerated being underpayed enough that they can't justify firing me.

I'm also not some MIT AI machine learning savant. I come from a business analyst/ QA background, and I have made a SQL/Java/VBA system for virtually free that does the work of a team of 10 every day, but it's just my underpaid ass running it.

When I lose this job, honestly, I'm fucked and it will be a nightmare because I'll probably need to go into an office, and I'm in no shape for that.

But for today, I said no and I keep doing my job.

[-] TheBat@lemmy.world 114 points 6 months ago

When I lose this job, honestly, I'm fucked and it will be a nightmare because I'll probably need to go into an office, and I'm in no shape for that.

Which is why you should be looking for another job that ticks all your checkboxes while you have this job.

[-] griD@feddit.de 24 points 6 months ago

Very sound advice.

[-] IHawkMike@lemmy.world 22 points 6 months ago

You need to demand a raise. And keep working from home.

[-] Melkath@kbin.social 23 points 6 months ago

That's been the tactic.

Baby steps.

[-] Habahnow@sh.itjust.works 17 points 6 months ago

Don't think you should listen to the other guy at face value. The market for your skills is very bad right now. Ensure you don't lose your job, but definitely feel comfortable looking around for something better. When the market feels better and you're getting reached out to a lot, then be more assertive at work.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[-] eee@lemm.ee 107 points 6 months ago

Apparently smaller tech firms are loving office mandates, because it allows them to hire talent that they normally would not have access to at their budget.

[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 64 points 6 months ago

Yep. I'm willing to make 10% less to be fully remote. Given the alternative is fewer days of sleep each year, plus many more in time spent grooming and transiting, then the cost of transport and lunch, to ultimately get less done, both at home and at work (with the same deadlines) I might even take 15-20% less.

Work/life balance is more important than money.

[-] Tinks@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago

My company is based in CA, and employs me remotely from the Midwest. They pay me above average for my area, but less than they would have to if I lived in the Bay area where they are based. I feel like this works out for both of us! They even go so far as looking at the zip code of every employee when considering raises, and thus far (3 years) I have received an annual raise which is higher than the cost of living increase for my area.

In my situation at least, me working remotely benefits both myself and my company. I just can't understand why so many larger companies are so adamant about return to office, especially ones in larger coastal cities.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] irotsoma@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

Food and gasoline prices have skyrocketed. Infrastructure is a mess in most of the country so it takes longer and longer to get anywhere at peak times. Companies have cut costs in offices so they're just crowded and full of distraction and germs. So yeah, lots of time and money is saved by working from home.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] 0110010001100010@lemmy.world 75 points 6 months ago

I work for a 350k+ company doing grid mod for energy utilities. The head of our division had an "all hands" meeting earlier in the week saying based on client requirements we all need to be in an office or on the clients site.

The head of our group of ~20 (my bosses boss) scheduled a meeting right after and said ignore that. Our team is kicking ass and our current client has not such requirements (other than onsite at their location for training/go-lives which is reasonable). Furthermore, he said unless it was out of his hands this could be the normal with new clients.

We have a killer team from all over the US (many of whom are nowhere near the client or our company offices). This team would dissolve quickly if that mandate ever hit us.

My point is, there ARE still people in upper(ish) management that understand to keep top talent you have to be willing to accept or embrace work from wherever. Hell, during the last go-live last hear he basically said unless absolutely required he didn't WANT any of us on-site with the client. He wanted us all comfy, no jet-lag, in our normal settings to be able to troubleshoot issues. Granted, I worked nearly 80 hours that week, but that's not a normal week. I usually work 30-40.

lol and holy wall of text batman. I didn't mean to write that much but it's here and I don't want to delete it.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 29 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Yup. We got a new CEO, and they did a big push for productivity and enforcing our 3-day in office policy. My team had been on 2-day since the pandemic WFH policy ended, and my boss said we'd give it a try, and if it sucked we could go back. We had worse productivity, so we went back to 2-days in-office. The company policy is still 3-days in office, we just ignore it.

It really depends on your boss. A good boss can ignore stupid company policy, and a bad boss can ruin good company policy. My boss is one of the main reasons I took the job, and it's also why I'm still here (I'm pretty sure I'm underpaid, and my boss is upfront about that, but I like my boss so I'm sticking with it for now).

[-] scytale@lemm.ee 18 points 6 months ago

Similar to my case. My manager is based in Europe, and he basically said that to him, I’m a remote employee whether I wfh or go to the office, so it doesn’t matter. And even for other team members in the same location as him, he doesn’t force them to come in.

Our director (my boss’ boss) moved out of the US so it doesn’t make sense for him to ask us to come in when he himself is remote. And he also told us that he doesn’t care where we work from.

We’re lucky our bosses aren’t old heads with outdated work principles. Barring any explicit orders from the very top, I expect to keep the status quo. And even then, I’m sure at least up to our VP will defy those orders.

[-] Kadaj21@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

Yeah our CIO started talking bringing cubes back. My manager, his manner and our director are pretty opposed to this. We do well remote and there are things we literally couldn’t do in the office. We’re in once a week-ish if it works out and if this forced our director would have to move back from multiple states over…. I don’t think they’ll make that move back if pressed and one co-worker expressed “fire me” sentiment if it comes.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] RozhkiNozhki@lemmy.world 69 points 6 months ago

People who have headhunters lining at the door do not want to be office slaves? Unbelievable.

[-] 0x0@programming.dev 66 points 6 months ago
[-] Fontasia@feddit.nl 28 points 6 months ago

If this would have surprised no one they wouldn't have done it and just ate the cost of office spaec. No, there's people out there who still think company loyalty is a thing and that fostering a "company culture" is actually viable.

[-] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 31 points 6 months ago

It absolutely is. If you treat your employees like human beings, they'll reward you with loyalty. But that just doesn't seem to be a thing any more in the US.

[-] SupraMario@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

Loyalty comes from money...old days of small companies who took care of their employees are gone. Wanna retain me? Fuck you pay me.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[-] Romeowns@lemmy.world 65 points 6 months ago

The push to return to office is nothing more than a push to thin out the numbers. Much cheaper for them to jump themselves than be pushed by management.

[-] RidcullyTheBrown@lemmy.world 75 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

No, it is just incompetence. There's a serious disconnect between the people making the return to office call and the people dealing with it. The thinking is that, over years, the talent lost will be replaced and the backlash will subside and whatever reason they have for the RTO is more important than these.

The trouble with the software industry upper management is that they have never had to deal with an industry in trouble. They've been working in a rapidly growing industry for their whole career. Bad decisions matter very little in such environments so they think they don't make any.

[-] Ragnarok314159@sopuli.xyz 20 points 6 months ago

Also most of these people in management roles seldom are the ones doing anything. A lot of them are either HR MBA type people, or sales. They don’t know anything of how a company actually works, what the jobs entail, or how to run a company.

Usually these companies all run in spite of them doing their best efforts to make it run as awful as possible.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[-] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 46 points 6 months ago

No shit. Leave us the hell alone so we can focus on deliverables.

The whoe "tech layoffs" always sound scary, but we are still in high demand. And we'll keep jumping because fuck your BS micromanagement.

[-] namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev 32 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Everyone in this thread is saying that this comes as no surprise, and that is certainly true. But the thing is, a lot of management types do know this already but they simply don't care for two reasons:

  1. They care more about leverage/control over employees than they do about actual good work being done. You cannot understate at all how important employee control can be for managers and how seriously they're willing to destroy their own business to keep this kind of power.

  2. RTO is basically a layoff program. As much as I love working remotely, it's very important to keep in mind that remote workers are the first ones that will get laid off when the business wants to cut back - purely because of how easy it is to do. They can just mandate RTO without actually calling it a layoff and know many workers will outright quit, and the business won't have to comply with whatever local regulations are in place around layoffs. Still, this shouldn't sound like comfort for employees that do work in the office - there's a good chance that once RTO is in place, another round of layoffs will strike when the company doesn't meet its cut targets. So any time a business announces return to office, it means that there's a good chance that layoffs will follow too.

tl;dr: Managers knew this would happen all along too - it was just a trade they were very willing to make.

load more comments (6 replies)
[-] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 26 points 6 months ago

can confirm. source: did this 3 separate times

[-] beefbot 19 points 6 months ago

Just a quick thanks for including a nonpaywalled link, @ylai@lemmy.ml !

[-] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 16 points 6 months ago

I want to work from home, at least part time, but the other two developers we have need quite a bit of handholding. They are good people and I want to keep them around, but if left to their own devices they would not work at all.

How can I get to the point where we can all work from home part time, without spending half of my day micromanaging them or keeping them on a WebCam just to be sure they’re working? I definitely don’t want to do that shit.

[-] ocassionallyaduck@lemmy.world 39 points 6 months ago

To do this without being a helicopter manager, state clearly to them what your goal is. Most employees will work with you if the end result is wfh without a nannycam. Explain you need a way to confirm work product in a way that management can approve of without being too invasive, and keeping on pace with in office work.

In truth, you should not care if they slack off half the day as long as they produce quality work product at a similar rate. Wfh is fewer interruptions and meetings, and means already they will have more "free" time. This is a management principle that is hard to accept, but insisting on the appearance of work is detrimental. Obviously this varies based on the type of work, but yours sounds like a software development situation. "so long as your reports are filed and your queue is cleared every 48 hours, your pace is up to you".

Give them the rope to hang themselves with. Tell them that's what you're doing. Maybe one dev prefers to go easy then crunch for 6 hours on the 2nd of that 2 day cycle, for example.

Ultimately you cannot teach people to be responsible but you get far more positive results from treating people with trust and positivity than with skepticism and monitoring. That makes you less a team and more "the other".

Obviously this advice may not apply in your situation but in general try where you can to apply this in principle.

load more comments (6 replies)
[-] Yaztromo@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago

I’m a tech manager with a 100% remote team of seven employees. We’re a very high performing team overall, and I give minimal hand-holding while still fostering a collaborative working environment.

First off, you need to make outcomes clear. Assign tasks, and expect them to get done in a reasonable timeframe. But beyond that, there should be no reason to micro-manage actual working hours. If some developer needs some time during the day to run an errand and wants to catch up in the evening, fine by me. I don’t need them to be glued to their desk 9-5/10-6 or for some set part of the day — so long as the tasks are getting done in reasonable time, I let me employees structure their working hours as they see fit.

Three times a week we have regular whole-team checkins (MWF), where everyone can give a status update on their tasks. This helps keep up accountability.

Once a month I reserve an hour for each employee to just have a general sync-up. I allow the employee to guide how this time is used — whether they want to talk about issues with outstanding tasks, problems they’re encountering, their personal lives, or just “shoot the shit”. I generally keep these meetings light and employee-directed, and it gives me a chance to stay connected with them on both a social level and understand what challenges they might be facing.

And that’s it. I’ve actually gone as far as having certain employees who were being threatened with back-to-office mandates to have them converted to “remote employee” in the HR database so they’d have to lay off threatening them — only 2 of my 7 employees are even in the same general area of the globe (my employees are spread in 3 different countries at the moment), and I don’t live somewhere with an office, so having some employees forced to report to an office doesn’t help me in the slightest (I can’t be in 6 places at once — I live far enough away I can’t be in any of those places on a regular basis!).

Your employees may have got used to you micro-managing them. Changing this won’t happen overnight. Change from a micro-manager into a coach, and set them free. And if they fail…then it’s time to talk to HR and to see about making some changes. HTH!

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (9 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
706 points (100.0% liked)

Technology

59612 readers
2405 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.


Our Rules


  1. Follow the lemmy.world rules.
  2. Only tech related content.
  3. Be excellent to each another!
  4. Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
  5. Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
  6. Politics threads may be removed.
  7. No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
  8. Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
  9. Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS