741
Supreme leader mad (sh.itjust.works)
submitted 6 months ago by 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
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[-] tubbadu@lemmy.kde.social 89 points 6 months ago

Is there some lore about this I don't know?

[-] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 130 points 6 months ago

There is no C++ allowed in the Linux kernel and Linus has gone on several major rants about how terrible a language it is.

[-] VubDapple@lemmy.world 53 points 6 months ago

Is it all C?

[-] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 84 points 6 months ago

According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is:

  • C 98.3%
  • Assembly 0.7%
  • Shell 0.4%
  • Makefile 0.2%
  • Python 0.2%
  • Perl 0.1%
  • Other 0.1%

So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts.

[-] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 30 points 6 months ago

Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm.

[-] riodoro1@lemmy.world 16 points 6 months ago

Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad.

[-] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 6 months ago

Sometimes you can't get around it though.

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[-] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 82 points 6 months ago

There’s assembly and makefiles too

Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers.

[-] Vilian@lemmy.ca 29 points 6 months ago

rust too

[-] jabjoe@feddit.uk 16 points 6 months ago

Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same.

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[-] Rossphorus@lemm.ee 74 points 6 months ago

Torvalds just really dislikes C++. He's gone on the record saying that he thinks it's just not a good language. In his own words "C++ is just a waste, there is no design at all, just adding some scum on top of C."

[-] Vilian@lemmy.ca 57 points 6 months ago

he's not wrong

[-] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 34 points 6 months ago

In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome.

[-] Vilian@lemmy.ca 8 points 6 months ago

they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible

[-] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

The STD is maybe the only good thing C++ has over C, and even that is awful compared to other language’s standard libraries.

I can’t name another good thing C++ has. Maybe templates. C++’s reliance on inheritance for polymorphism is awful (should’ve gone with interfaces/traits).

Not to mention the mess with all the different types of constructors that must always be implemented.

It’s just a bunch of bad design choices added on top of an old outdated language.

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[-] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 34 points 6 months ago

Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with.

[-] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 15 points 6 months ago

I would have agreed with that before C++11. But since then, C++ has improved a lot. Its like the vision of what C++ suddenly became more clear. So I wonder if Linus would still say that today. (Unfortunately, there have been a lot of missteps in the development of C++ though, and so there is a lot of cruft that everyone wishes was not there...)

[-] jalkasieni@sopuli.xyz 53 points 6 months ago

”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”

http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus

[-] raoul@lemmy.sdf.org 45 points 6 months ago

I don't know about Linus, but the last time Reiser's wife was seen, she was writing a c++ hello world

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 22 points 6 months ago

Too soon.

[-] vox@sopuli.xyz 28 points 6 months ago

”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”

http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus

[-] MashedTech@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago

Literally apply that train of thought to JavaScript and JavaScript is in an even worse position than C++

[-] CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 months ago

JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really.

[-] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 26 points 6 months ago

For an example from the other poster’s explanation:

https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/

This was pre c++11 - not sure if he’s changed his mind at all with more modern c++

[-] 5C5C5C@programming.dev 11 points 6 months ago

He absolutely has not.

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[-] Bye@lemmy.world 53 points 6 months ago

The day I learned that Linus shares my disdain for all things OOP was such a good day for me.

[-] ADTJ@feddit.uk 78 points 6 months ago

Me, when Linus' opinion is different to mine: "Linus has such weirdly strong opinions about this"

Me when Linus' opinion is the same as mine: VINDICATION

[-] UpperBroccoli 7 points 6 months ago

[-] Emmie@lemm.ee 5 points 6 months ago

peak hairless ape

[-] evranch@lemmy.ca 22 points 6 months ago

I feel the OOP debate got a bit out of hand. I hate OOP as well, as a paradigm.

But I love objects. An object is just a struct that can perform operations on itself. It's super useful. So many problems lend themselves to the use of objects.

I've been writing a mix of C and C++ for so long I don't even know where the line is supposed to be. It's "C with objects". I probably use only 1% of the functionality of C++, but that 1% is a huge upgrade from bare C IMO.

[-] namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev 12 points 6 months ago

Agreed. Objects are nice and a great way to program. Composition is great. Traits/interfaces are great. Namespaces are great. Objects are a really nice way to reap the benefits of principles like these.

But then there are aspects of OOP that absolutely suck, like inheritance. I hate inheritance. The rules get very confusing very quickly. For example, try understanding overriding of methods. Do I need to call the superclass method or not? If not, does it get called automatically? If so, in what order? How do these rules change for the constructor? Now repeat this exercise for every OOP language you use and try not to mix them up... Java, C++, Python, etc.

Fortunately, it feels like we rely on inheritance less and less these days. As an example, I really like how Java allows you to implement Runnable these days. Before, if you wanted to run a thread, you needed a separate object that inherited Thread. And what if that object needs to inherit from another one too? Things would get out of hand quickly. (This is a very old example, but with lambdas and other new features, things are getting even better now.)

Anyway, long story short, I think OOP is a complicated way to achieve good principles, and there are simpler ways to achieve those principles than a full OOP implementation.

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[-] jabjoe@feddit.uk 14 points 6 months ago

He is is OK with OOP. The Linux kernel is full of OPP C, but he doesn't like C++

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[-] sep@lemmy.world 40 points 6 months ago

I know it is a complete joke. But every time i think of c++ i am reminded of this prank article https://www-users.york.ac.uk/~ss44/joke/cpp.htm

[-] loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works 32 points 6 months ago

I wonder what would offend Linus more: A version of the Linux Kernel with C++ or one that breaks the userspace...

[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 31 points 6 months ago

A PHP kernel?

[-] Rozauhtuno 13 points 6 months ago

That's just a crime against humanity.

[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

You know you want a PHP distribution with a JavaScript interface. Don't lie to yourself.

[-] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 months ago

Uuuuu... you done it now 😬...

[-] uis@lemm.ee 6 points 6 months ago

Hauge

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[-] Tikiporch@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

Mic looks like earring, can't unsee it...

[-] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago

Assembly it is, then

[-] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 5 points 6 months ago

What's wrong with c++?

[-] themoken@startrek.website 43 points 6 months ago

For kernel dev it would be a disaster, there's too much implicit action, and abstractions that have unknown runtime cost. The classic answer is that everyone uses 10% of its features over C, but nobody can agree on which 10%.

As someone forced to get up to date with C++ recently, at this point it's a language in full identity crisis. It wants so badly to be Rust, but it's got decades of baggage it's dragging along.

[-] model_tar_gz@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

And now there is precedent for Rust components in the Linux kernel.

[-] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works 6 points 6 months ago

It do be like that... a lot of old languages want to be Rust...

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 11 points 6 months ago

What’s wrong with C? Just write a module

  • My dad
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this post was submitted on 13 Apr 2024
741 points (100.0% liked)

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