Suggestions to simplify Lemmy for the average user who just wants a Reddit clone (lemmy.world)

submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world to c/lemmyworld@lemmy.world

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Tl;dr

Signing up- "Basic version"- you're given a server automatically (so the user isn't scared off by perceived complexities of the federated model)
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         - "Advanced version" - as normal, you choose a server.
```
Normal use - everything defaults to "All" (for posting, viewing your page)
**Links to communities ** on other servers for the basic mode are simplified

I spent a bit of time while signing up trying to decide which server to sign up to and whether it matters. I would say that this would be a barrier for many average Reddit users. Let's make it as seamless as possible-- No need to choose a server.

Your front page has a "local" and "all" view. I don't know the benefits of only browsing on local (faster? Less resources? Better if most of your communities are hosted on your local server?), However as many of my comms are global, I can't see why I'd ever not use All. Let's simplify it for the average user and not have the option for Local.

I've had a few instances where someone gives a link for a community and its not given in the right format so I can't sign up to it (?it's a server specific link - I still don't know). This would be frustrating to the average user and another barrier. Let's simplify these links and make them universal.

The "federated model" has clear benefits, however the additional learning curve will scare off the average Reddit user who is not tech literate. The changes above may be controversial and may Increase resource use on the platform or may be impossible, but I would say they would make Lemmy easier to allow new users to sign up and stay on the platform.

EDIT: I asked a few AI bots for their recommendations, and Claude-v1 had the best:

Provide curated lists of recommended public instances. Lemmy could maintain an official list of featured instances that meet certain standards of moderation, activity, topics, etc. This makes it easier for users to find good communities to join without having to research instances themselves.

2.Create categories and tags for instances to aid discovery. Instances could self-categorize based on topics, languages, moderation policies, and other attributes. Users could then filter and search for instances that match their interests. This helps address the issue of needing to choose a server.

Develop "instance spotlight" posts or videos. The Lemmy team could work with instance administrators to create blog posts, videos, and other media highlighting specific instances, their communities, moderation, and cultures. This raises visibility and drives more informed choice.
Implement an instance recommendation system. Based on a user's interests and the instances they join, Lemmy could recommend other instances that may be of interest. This makes it easy to discover more communities without needing to search manually.
Create a "new user onboarding" process with instance suggestions. When a user first signs up for Lemmy, they could go through an onboarding flow that asks about their interests and then provides some initial instance recommendations to join based on their preferences. This helps new users get started easily.
Allow users to follow tags, topics, or keywords instead of just users and instances. Users could then see posts from across the network related to things they care about, even if the posts are on different instances. This provides more centralization and cohesion without sacrificing server autonomy.
Increase interoperability between instances. Making it even easier for users to follow users/posts, see profiles, share posts, and otherwise interact with different instances could help Lemmy feel more cohesive while still being decentralized. Increased interconnectivity leads to a better overall experience.

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[-] impulse@lemmy.world 27 points 2 years ago

I can see how your basic option would be a good way of easily balancing the load of new users across the federation by assigning them according to the current capacity of each server.

However, I think it is important that you as a user choose an instance you are able to align with. Best example: If you're not into it, you will have a pretty rough time on lemmygrad.ml.

[-] Kasrean@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

random default instances would probably need to follow some neutrality and diversity principle.

also it should be easy to clone your account and preferences (even comment history) to another instance.

[-] Merthin1234@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago

Is there any way to clone account/community data from one instance to another now? Maybe I’m a little confused on how this works but what if an instance decides to shutdown? Are all of the posts/communities/users on it just gone forever?

[-] Kasrean@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Not sure, I would assume everything is just gone. Would be nice if powerusers could sometimes mark comments and posts as significant and some archive project agreed to fetch and store those at least (highly upvoted explanations, jokes, memes). Or I guess a couple of instances that only allow "best of" reposts from other instances would also work.

[-] kresten@feddit.dk 5 points 2 years ago

It could work like a whitelist, where instance admins submit their instance, on the condition that their instances accept everyone and aren't politically oriented / being neutral.

[-] sangle_of_flame@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I think this would work even better if account migration is ever added later down the line; if you find out that you like a certain instance better or if you want to access an instance that your current instance blocks, you can just migrate your account over there

[-] kresten@feddit.dk 2 points 2 years ago

The lack of account migration is a major gap right now, and it should be prioritized higher

[-] 24Vindustrialdildo@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 years ago

It's baffling how having a home instance makes you subject to the whims of the instance admins ref. banning your user across the lemmyverse or deciding what you will and won't see by their Federation choices. It's like, I despised Reddit for its blanket censorship and statistical-minority rule, and Lemmy has chosen to kind of replicate that?

I'd much rather my user profile and preferences, feed settings just be a lightweight, mobile or transient thing that can be moved around as the nature of each instance changes, with admins just housing an agreed number of users as part of the "cost" of being a Lemmy instance, and not having any pastoral role in their governance.

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[-] Dezi@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago

I absolutely agree that the „Local“ button on the front page is weird. I don’t get how it’s useful and it kind of negates the „it doesn’t matter what instance you have your account at“ argument.

[-] Treevan@beehaw.org 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Only for random instances.

Beehaw has specific rules about trying to be nice to others so if you want a pleasant scroll, you keep it on Local.

Works great.

Edit: and on Mastodon, if you join a country or state instance, you get posts from people in your area rather than "America First".

[-] JWBananas@startrek.website 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It makes sense for topical instances. For example, startrek.website is where /r/startrek and /r/daystrominstitute and /r/risa landed. I saw a post earlier about some all-things-gardening instance as well.

And just in general, I certainly wouldn't want to drink from the firehose. The whole reason I created an account on reddit over a decade ago was to limit what I saw on the front page. Aside from occasional usage for discoverability, I cannot imagine wanting to drink from every firehose, everywhere, all at once.

[-] YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

Yes! Not sure why anyone would want to see the communities they are interested in but are only hosted on their local server.

[-] notun@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

I’ve had a few instances where someone gives a link for a community and its not given in the right format so I can’t sign up to it (?it’s a server specific link - I still don’t know). This would be frustrating to the average user and another barrier. Let’s simplify these links and make them universal.

Going to a different server/instance should just have a button that lets you login with your main instance with one click. It's a real pain in the ass right now.

[-] lee@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 years ago

Yessss, this issue is a pita

[-] Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

I don’t think it’s a great idea to assign someone to a random server.

You don’t want a view instance to get all the traffic.
You want people to choose a server that fits their interests.

It’s just really hard to make something so centralized for something that’s meant to be the opposite.

[-] kresten@feddit.dk 4 points 2 years ago

What is the problem with having a centralized sign-up solution? Just consider it an extra service.

[-] Biberkopf@feddit.de 6 points 2 years ago

Isn’t the whole point of the federation exercise to avoid a central all powerful hub?

Yes, it definitely increases friction for the user. On the other hand the concept is not THAT hard to grasp. I’d rather that the clients make account/instance switching easier and avoid recreating monolithic structures.

[-] kresten@feddit.dk 2 points 2 years ago

I partly agree. The point is to avoid centralization, but that doesn't mean we can't have any centralization. Besides, it isn't possible to avoid this. Such a service would live outside of the federated network and would simply submit user admissions, or redirect potential new users.

[-] YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

Maybe when someone signs up they choose a few interests and then the system chooses an appropriate server (or you choose yourself).

[-] Thekingoflorda@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

That fixes problem 2, but not problem 1.

[-] YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

I meant if server choice should be based on the servers that may have the most communities that match your interests, then the system choosing your server on signup according to your interests means you don't have to choose a server.

It would be unlikely that all the communities that a user wants to become a member on are on one server, so point 2 would still stand (ie. you would want to see all of your communities on all servers, not just on your local server).

[-] Spzi@lemmy.click 2 points 2 years ago

You don’t want a view instance to get all the traffic.

Random assignments would "ensure" not a single instance gets all newcomers. They would be spread across instances.

I also did not understand what you mean with "a view instance", can you please explain? New to lemmy.

You want people to choose a server that fits their interests.

Why, and how? I thought we have federation so we don't have to do that. My interests will be all over the place. If I had to side with one specific instance, I would probably rather leave lemmy altogether. It is already small as a whole, a single instance does not suffice. I'm here because I was promised I would not have to do anything on my home instance apart from being registered to it.

[-] llama@midwest.social 8 points 2 years ago

It's a slight architecture change and people will get it with time. When I first started on reddit I couldn't wrap my head around how a self text post worked but with time it made sense. Each Lemmy instance is like its own reddit front page but it houses its own communities.

[-] YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Sure, though I imagine when most people want to talk about photography or gaming or whatever they want to talk with the entire community (All), not a small part of the community (local). We want good discussions, and fragmenting these discussions on the same topics in local groups seems to me backward as you're missing out on the views of the majority and vice versa, hence why I'd say make "All" the default (and invisible, unless you want an advanced view).

If you want the average Joe and Georgette to come to reddit it has to be as simple as possible, and choosing servers, parsing links and deciding what view to see is too much overhead for most people IMO

[-] llama@midwest.social 2 points 2 years ago

As the ecosystem develops, I imagine several Lemmy instances will become somewhat of a network where they all federate each other, this sort of already exists between many of the largest instances. Though I've discovered bakchodi.org which it seems does not federate with anybody which is disappointing.

So yes technically you are commenting on a thread within your own server that is a mirror and then if the original server allows, users there will see your comments and can reply to you also.

I also would like to see the platform be more proactive about indexing communities on other sites, to me that is the whole point of creating an allow list for federating. I shouldn't have to search for a community 5 times for it to appear on my home instance, and I should be able to subscribe from anywhere as long as my home server is federated.

[-] YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Oh boy, you've confused me! The server mirrors other server's communities? I was wondering about this as sometimes I have the same community open in two tabs and they have slightly different addresses, or maybe I had that wrong.

THis is the sort of backroom technical stuff that most users don't want to see.

[-] llama@midwest.social 3 points 2 years ago

Yes if you look at https://lemmy.world/instances you can see all of the instances that lemmy.world talks to. It's because of the fact that lemmy.world and midwest.social both talk to each other, that we're able to talk to each other!

[-] administrator@lemmy.pro 7 points 2 years ago

We made a new instance at lemmy.pro to also be a high performance one - so we read this with great interest!

[-] YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Can I become a member? re my 3rd point, how do I sign up as when I open you page it seems to be server specific so I'm not logged in. I guess I need to change the formatting of the link?

These sorts of things would put off most users, I'd say.

[-] administrator@lemmy.pro 2 points 2 years ago

Yes you can become a member, we have open registration. Signing up for and logging in to instances is a little buggy sometimes, so I don't know if it's a Lemmy thing or "us" at Lemmy.pro maybe having some configuration or new instance setup issue.

About your other question, I think what happened for you is you went to the base url of another instance you aren't a member of or logged in to, like: https://lemmy.pro/c/cybersecurity so you can't comment on anything when you get there, or subscribe to it etc, right.

The fix is to switch that syntax around, and write "!cybersecurity@lemmy.pro" and put that into the search while at the url of your own instance, and then can do all expected actions.

Maybe you already knew that but asked rhetorically; and you're right, it's cumbersome for new users. I think they'll iron that out somehow someday.

[-] YellowtoOrange@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Thanks a lot, I guess I'm one of those people who dives in and doesn't read the manual, so I missed that part.

Requiring such syntax for links seems quite technical (created by an IT engineer to suit a purpose rather than for simplicity and ease of use) and "old fashioned". I'm pretty IT literate, used to programme, been on reddit since Digg etc and it caught me up (though I should have read the manual!)

Perhaps such things are being tweaked.

[-] administrator@lemmy.pro 3 points 2 years ago

Yeah for sure, it's taken me days to wrap my head around a few things too. With this new instance, I'm still trying to figure out how to effectively "connect" to all other communities so anyone who joins our instance has a seamless experience and less headache. It's a little weird, but the overall plusses still winning me over overall. Cheers!

[-] Spectator@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

Hello. I moved to Reddit with the Digg Exodus, and now I'm here. History does repeat itself.

[-] kresten@feddit.dk 5 points 2 years ago

Someone should most definitly start some kind of sign-up service, where people can submit their instance, and their maximum user threshold, with the service dividing users equally. Instances should probably be sorted by language, and politically-oriented instances excluded from the service (looking at you lemmygrad.ml)

[-] phrexleysnipes@lemmy.world 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Maybe there should be servers dedicated just to hosting users. Just a generic instance without posts or communities that's not catering to certain ideologies/interests/communities. Users can still access all the other instances on Lemmy, and the server would save storage space by not hosting communities.

[-] kresten@feddit.dk 2 points 2 years ago

That would make sense. Maybe this could be done by introducing a new term for a 'bare' instance, and allow people to 'advertise' them as such.

[-] JesusTheCarpenter@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I kind of like this idea.

[-] passport@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago

Servers that just host users also seem like way lower liability for the hosts than servers with content. If I host my own instance, it'll probably be like this.

[-] communist@beehaw.org 5 points 2 years ago

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/1113

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/1048

I think these two changes will fix things dramatically.

[-] vivia@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 years ago

Doomscrolling is difficult right now. Images should be big enough, so that you can stay on Subscribed or All while looking at funny or cute pictures. Right now they're tiny and you have to click on them one by one.

[-] SeerLite 1 points 2 years ago

But that's the UI I liked from old Reddit!

[-] vivia@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 years ago

I find the old Reddit UI to work better when browsing through a list of articles or stories. For images, it interrupts the nice flow I have when I have a bigger image size. I have the same configuration on my RSS feed reader btw: showing the full article in my "webcomics" folder and just title+short preview in my "news" folder.

[-] Spzi@lemmy.click 3 points 2 years ago

That's great! Coming from a game designer / UX perspective, these were exactly my thoughts. The current process does not put the new user in the center, and the experience suffers accordingly. If lemmy wants to grow, this is one major aspect to improve (and I want it to grow!). The sign up process has probably the biggest impact on growth.

Sign up: Yes, make a basic default version and a less visible advanced option. Side benefit: Lemmy can choose where new users should (not) be registered, which allows some lemmy-wide load balancing. This can be achieved decentrally by individual instances accepting new registrations or not. Also do not talk about setting up an instance on a page directed to new users, who mostly just want to register an account. Make this option even less visible. People willing and able to set up a server will find the info. People unwilling and unable to understand advanced registration will be overwhelmed and put off by server talk.
Subscribed/Local/All: Also agreed, 'local' is the least useful option (is it even useful for anyone besides instance admins?) and should not be the default. I have worries making 'all' the default; people could get the impression their subscriptions do not work. How about this: Make 'all' the default for users with 0 subscriptions, and 'subscribed' the default for users with > 0.
Links between instances: I wish this was simpler and more usable. Currently I don't understand all the options and cases and cannot begin to describe the problem or propose a solution. I wish there was a non-techie way to post a link which works out of the box for anyone, no matter what instance they call their home.

[-] Dezi@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

I absolutely agree that the „Local“ view is weird. I don’t get how it’s useful and it kind of negates the „it doesn’t matter what instance you have your account at“ argument.

[-] XTL@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 years ago

It could be interesting if the instance you use is from your country, language, or special interest group or something. Then the Local views will be a sort of high priority list and All gets you to the federated content.

[-] BlinkerFluid@lemmy.one 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

This could all be done with Jerboa with zero input from the admins of individual instances.

Jerboa could send an "application" from each user that registers to the server it chose based on load and location, then inform the user once their account is approved and log them in, them of course getting an email from the instance letting them know where their profile resides.

[-] Dezi@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I absolutely agree that the „Local“ view is weird. I don’t get how it’s useful and it kind of negates the „it doesn’t matter what instance you have your account at“ argument.

[-] nikostheater@fedia.io 2 points 2 years ago

I agree. Things need to be simple, intuitive, logical and as hassle free as possible.
That means everything: UI, signing up, configuring the service, everything. A user should just sign up , have an optional menu to choose topics and automatically the system should serve him a default page with two tabs or panes: All and Topics.
Then, by choosing a topic, the user could see content about that topic from various relevant servers, based on tags, flairs etc.
It also needs to play decently nice with social media.
Ads should be in regions that at hassle free and tag appropriately and clearly as ads.
Maybe an option for some communities to be private and subscription based.
Simplicity and ease of use is key.
A difficult, quirky system will stay niche or irrelevant and will die.