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submitted 2 years ago by Gaywallet@beehaw.org to c/support@beehaw.org

Beehaw is a community of individuals and therefore does not have any specific political affiliation. At this point in time, we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are. I would suspect that many of them would identify as progressive because we are explicitly a safe space for minorities. What we stand for and the space that we're trying to make is compatible with many forms of politics. Unfortunately some political groups build themselves around and choose to elevate or tolerate hate speech. These are the only political groups that we are incompatible with. If any of it was unclear in any of the other posts, I will restate it all here. Beehaw does not tolerate hate speech. Beehaw is an explicitly safe space. We center and promote kindness because that is what we see and love in the world.

Some of the instances that we have chosen to defederate with have explicit political stances and ideologies. Their political stance and ideology had nothing to do with the choice to defederate. The choice to defederate was based on the amount of hate speech present on the instance and/or explicitly endorsing it. Since hate speech is not controlled on the instances that these users come from, we cannot expect them to change their behavior when participating on our instance. While users may exist on some of these platforms who do not spread hate speech, the choice to defederate is made to reduce the burden on our moderators and admins. Occasionally these instances or users from these instances will point their fingers at Beehaw and make claims about our political leanings or whether certain kinds of politics are banned. To be explicitly clear, the only kind of politics that are banned here are those which enable hate speech such as fascism.

Politics on the internet


Many, if not most discussions of politics on the internet are poisoned by virtue signaling. When they are not poisoned by virtue signaling, discussions are often just ways to vent emotions. I believe the reason for this is the platforms themselves and the incentives to engage online. On the internet I can adjust my level of anonymity. An adjustable level of anonymity allows me to change how I speak to others while simultaneously mitigating or removing any consequences to myself. This of course varies based on the platform and what I'm attempting to accomplish, but in the context of speaking with others on the internet, I can be relatively consequence free to say whatever I want on most major platforms. Particularly negative or hateful behavior might cause me to be banned off of a platform, but through the use of technology or other means, I can simply create another account (or migrate to another platform) and continue the same speech. In malicious terms, I do not have to worry about managing someone else's emotions or my connection to them.

In real life, on the other hand, it is not as easy to pass myself off as someone else. I must be much more aware of how I speak to others because consequences can be much more dire. When discussing politics with others, I may alienate them or myself and so I may choose to be more open to listen rather than soapboxing. The people I'm interacting with may be a regular part of my life and may be people I have come to respect. Understanding how they think might be vitally important to maintaining or improving our connection.

I am presenting the internet and real life as two ends of a spectrum but it is more complicated than that. There are people who are very visible and tied to their identities on the internet just as there are people in real life who use false identities created to mask their true identity. Interactions vary in level of connection, platform, and who happens to know who we are in other spaces on the internet. There are plenty of people who talk on the internet about politics with the explicit goal of changing the minds of others. Some of these individuals are not using this as an outlet to manage their own emotions. These generalizations are presented in this way because I need to talk about these patterns in the context of the platform Lemmy. I'm asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.

I would encourage all of you to think about incentives when presented with political drama online. It is easy to get engaged because politics has a direct and often scary effect on our lives. In this community, it is not difficult to find individuals who are regularly marginalized by politicians. Especially for these minorities, it is completely valid to get emotionally invested in politics and I would personally encourage doing so on some level, but we need to think carefully about the other parties present in a conversation and whether they are willing to listen or incentivized to do so. For the people who are hiding behind anonymity and posting to vent their emotional frustrations with the system they are likely not invested in the community we are growing here and it may be appropriate and healthy to ignore or disengage with these folks.

Forking


It is in this political context that forking from the main Lemmy development has been presented. People are quick to point to potential upsides of forking, but the upsides are an after thought presented as a means to bolster or justify forking. These justifications are for what is ultimately a moral issue. The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral. To anyone posing this question, I would ask them to consider what other technology they use every day and to trace the roots back to each invention along the path to today's day and age. The world has a colonialist history, rife with violence and immoral behavior. Unless you retreat the woods and recreate technologies yourself from scratch, it's impossible to live in a modern society without benefiting from technology built on countless dead bodies in history.

We do not have the technical expertise to create a new tool from scratch - all we can do is leverage tools that already exist to create communities like this. At the time we created this instance, the service we decided on was Lemmy. We did so with awareness of discussions around the politics of the main instance and developers. I think we've done a decent job outlining what we intend to do with this instance and explicitly made strong stances against hate speech and other behavior we do not agree with, including where we disagree with them. When taken in the context of computing in general, these political leanings are also not unique in their social and political harm as compared to some of the tech giants out there. The same is true in comparison to some of the famous tech inventors and innovators; in comparison to the history of computer technology; in comparison to the exploitation and problematic mining of rare earth minerals used in technology; in comparison to the damages we cause to the earth to create the energy used to power our servers. We can follow this path of thinking back all that we want to, and ultimately it's just not a particularly fruitful discussion to zero in on whether the political leaning of the main developers and instance are in perfect alignment with what we want to accomplish. We are not explicitly endorsing their viewpoint by using their software and we are not tied to using this software forever.

I cannot stress enough how much bandwidth has been taken up by these discussions in recent days. It been brought up as frequently as every few hours across Discord, Matrix, inbox replies, comment replies, new threads, and other forms of communication. We're currently dealing with a lot of other issues like keeping the server running, expanding to add more communities, moderating the communities amidst a huge influx of users posting and reply content from other instances, managing expenses, optimizing our server, planning for the future, and so much more. We cannot entertain philosophical discussions on all of the wonderful things we 'could do' when we're struggling to keep up with what we're already currently doing. We have not yet received a serious proposal for a fork which details operational needs when it comes to the maintenance, support, and resources needed to accomplish and maintain it. Simply put we do not believe a fork is necessary at this time.

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[-] Gaywallet@beehaw.org 19 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

How you can help


As a final note, if there are things you'd like to see in this community we very much appreciate your input. However, this community has grown so large that I am already finding myself unable to reply to everyone and address everyone's concerns and I'm sure other admins feel similarly. Please consider whether your questions are better directed elsewhere - consider using the search functionality to see if others have answered the question; consider joining the matrix or discord to field questions to community members, or create a thread asking for help from your fellow users before reaching out to an administrator or a moderator.

If you feel strongly about contributing to Beehaw specifically or helping out with tuning or running the hardware, please join the Matrix or Discord and get involved in the relevant channels or discussions. If you want to contribute to Lemmy development, we would encourage you to dip your toes in, get involved, and get more familiar with the platform. Follow the Github and report bugs when you encounter them, or see what you can contribue to existing open issues. If you see technical issues arise with development, bring it to our attention so that we can act as mediators because we have collective power.

If you feel strongly about a longer term or larger project like creating a team to create documentation or helping us to legally become a nonprofit entity I also want to assure you that we love the enthusiasm, but unless you are coming to us with a formal pitch please spend your efforts self-organizing around this so that you can come to us with that pitch. Assume we know nothing about the field of expertise needed to accomplish any of these larger tasks and assume that we are extremely busy and unable to field or solicit advice without an executive summary and at least a draft plan of what the steps might look like, who would be responsible for those steps, anticipated concerns and plans for addressing them, and a timeline and estimation of resources needed.

[-] ratboy@beehaw.org 50 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

My whole experience of moving to lemmy has felt like when people from another state move to a new one and complain about how awful it is and force it to change into where they left. If people are so absplutely offended by the politics of its originators, go create your own social media and stop harassing the poor mods, especially if the mods of this particular instance are trying go make your experience more palatable.

[-] CannaVet@lemmy.world 37 points 2 years ago

I settled on lemmy.world, but yeah 90% of the lemmy related discussion I see is "Why doesn't this work like Reddit and when can I expect it to work like Reddit?"

I've tried to do my part in explaining this isn't meant to be Reddit, but I'm already seeing an increase in hostility directed at devs for the lack of central authority (which is the thing they're fleeing in the first place but fuck me for pointing that out lol.)

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[-] reric88@beehaw.org 16 points 2 years ago

I recently moved here and through my minimal interaction so far, I love it. I'm all about positive treatment and inclusion. I have only made two posts (as a somewhat personal experiment to test the waters) which would not have had any attention on Reddit, and people actually talked and congratulated me, which was a very weird but welcome experience.

And I love that the downvote arrow is removed in order to promote discussion rather than just vote and move on.

A service can always improve and get better in some ways, but the stance of beehaw is perfect imo

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[-] SharkEatingBreakfast@beehaw.org 43 points 2 years ago

Hopefully this is not inappropriate, but regarding the "this platform was made by tankies"–argument:

[-] lemillionsocks@beehaw.org 16 points 2 years ago

Yeah lemmygrad will fade in popularity and lemmy.ml has already gotten so big it's shifted politically. It also seems like the creators are fine with other ideas on their instance too. Maybe it's just cause they know lemmy wouldnt get adopted otherwise but the only strict moderating against speech I see is against the obvious trolls and alt right fascists so far.

Then you have beehaw and the other instances outright blocking lemmygrad and things seem just peachy

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[-] OptimusPrime@lemmynsfw.com 37 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)
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[-] Hellebert@beehaw.org 36 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Lemmy is an AGPL software. Forking would just put a ton more burden on yourself with no real benefit.

I'd only bother forking if the original devs stopped supporting it and/or there were features you wanted but they refused to implement. What those dev's political believes are matter very little at the end of the day and it's ok for people to have different opinions.

[-] communist@beehaw.org 20 points 2 years ago

Yeah, I don't even understand what they strive to achieve with a fork.

Okay, it's forked now... do we add... features that the lemmy devs wouldn't... like...

...???

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[-] pixel@beehaw.org 32 points 2 years ago

All I'll say is, this is one of the huge advantages of FOSS. If a website is run by bigots and people tolerant of abhorrent behavior, that's part of the website. But if FOSS was written by someone of that ilk, you can take the toys they made for you and play elsewhere -- they showed their hand as soon as they submitted their project under an open source license, and it's too late now.

What I do think is worth mentioning is that I wouldn't be averse to forking conceptually -- on a political basis, sure, but as lemmy grows rapidly I think it's tremendously worthwhile to pay attention to any forks that fix issues and growing pains with lemmy as a service. It seems particularly restrictive on the backend in some ways (could be wrong) and I think that using a more feature rich fork should such a thing appear would definitely be to beehaw's benefit. But that's a conversation for when that day comes, and not one that should be predicated on "lemmy=tankies=bad" but rather on "does this fork serve our userbase more", which is both a healthier question to ask and one more in line with the community being cultivated here. All this is hypothetical or course, but it's worth talking to these ends early on imo

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[-] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 27 points 2 years ago

I’m asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.

Is that why? I notice some people will make some wild political assertion, and when I offer a counterargument or ask for evidence, they just repeat themselves. Frustrating.

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[-] feetongrass@beehaw.org 25 points 2 years ago

I don't think anybody can say beehaw is in any way representative of lemmy.ml politics. As far as I can see, it's the farthest thing from lemmy.ml or any other politics on either spectrum. I actually think beehaw is a fine example of how independent different instances can be.

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[-] taco@beehaw.org 25 points 2 years ago

I like this post! I follow some people elsewhere who are mostly hyping up kbin because the main developer of Lemmy is a tankie and the main developer of kbin maybe isn't - but it's such a weird thing to apply a purity test to. Other comments mentioned it but Lemmy is FOSS, so even if you disagree with the political leanings of the developers, you are totally free to do what you want with it. Barring the presence of any backdoors (which would likely/hopefully be caught because, again, FOSS) the main developers don't have access to any instances created with the software. I don't really understand the concern.

Now, if there's a functional concern with the Lemmy platform and how it's being developed, then yeah, that's when a fork should be looked at. It shouldn't be looked at by an individual community (with a lack of people who can help), but a more widespread effort. But forking because the "lead" developer doesn't match your purity test? Nah.

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[-] ffmike@beehaw.org 24 points 2 years ago

Hopefully not repeating things others have said...

  • Thanks for taking the time to write long thoughtful posts explaining the admin thinking, rather than just "we have decided X, live with it" posts.
  • It seems entirely appropriate to me for the admins to set the tone of this instance, through explicit rules, through deciding who to add as a user and who to make a mod, and through deciding which other instances to federate with. Anybody who disagrees can always start their own instance. That you're opening a coffee shop doesn't mean anyone can come in without shirt and shoes (bad analogy like all analogies).
  • It's entirely possible that I (older white male with plenty of income raised in a homegeneous white suburb) have some opinions that would be appropriate on one of those defederated instances but not here. I can always make an account over there if I feel the need to post those opinions. Likewise, if someone on a defederated instance wants to post here and can behave themselves according to the house rules, they can create an account here. This doesn't seem like a huge burden to impose on anyone.
  • During a long career as a software developers, just about every successful fork I can recall came about because a majority of a project's developers (not its users!) decided they had to leave a dysfunctional project. Until/unless Lemmy gets to that point it seems pretty silly to me to talk about forking the codebase.
[-] misguidedfunk@beehaw.org 14 points 2 years ago

This is what I have failed to understand about people seemingly worried about this instance wanting to be a safe space. If they do not like it, they can just jump to another instance.

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[-] Anon2971@beehaw.org 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Excellent response. I joined Beehaw because I liked Beehaw's rules and philosophy. Kinda reminds me of Mozilla's in beta Mastodon instance. Beehaw as an entity is completely separate from its technological roots and this post eloquently shows that.

I hope this eases any political harassment along those lines.

[-] Nullroad@beehaw.org 22 points 2 years ago

After a buzz over to Hexbear, I find the strain of far-left over there that is more concerned with backbiting and defending former-communist and current parody-communist regimes because blind 'if west bad, not west good' thinking, than any of the useful zones of leftist activity.

I didn't observe anything that was explicitly hate-speech in my 15 minutes buzzin' around, but it didn't really feel 'kind', if you know what I mean. I get why Beehaw isn't federated with them. For the record, I am a deeply left-person. I do think that stating "Beehaw has no specific political affiliation" to be somewhat naive. Midnight fueled thoughts incoming.

If Beehaw is "explicitly a safe space for minorities", then we must ask "Why do we need a safe space for minorities?", "Where does this need come from?" all of which begs questions about power, hierarchy, control, the sources and motive of hate and oppression, and a dozen other related questions that will each need some meaningful response. This leaves you with a couple of choices.

  • We become horribly reductionist (and naive) and just handwave and say "Because we need kindness, and there is hate." But then, why are we in need of kindness, why is there hate? Why do we need more love? Different hole, same warren. This route I think trips you up in the "unable to explain the issues themselves." You might retreat to the escape hatch of "focused on politics", but ignoring something so pervasive and in-your-face as politics is a conscious and focused political act. People who ignore politics are some of the most deeply political people on the planet. There is no escape from politics.
  • The other option: We confront and grapple with the beast, and reach conclusions, answers, and stances to the best of our ability about these issues that lie at the heart of a community's formation, what we want for it and for people. This is basically the formulation of an ideology or identity. Maybe not a concrete one, but one that will broadly align with some subset population and unalign with another. Maybe this doesn't quite fit with Beehaw's vision of community, but at its most over-simple, a community basically defined by both who is in, and who is out, and the nature of those assertions.

Bullet 1 is (in my opinion) unsustainable; it will present a nice facade for a time, but eventually people and events will make people dig, and dig, and dig. Some of these incidents will put people in a place where they won't have clarity and purity that comes from deliberate soul-searching, but will be wrapped up in moments of fear, panic, hate, outrage, and other emotions that will bias the rudder towards things the admin may find unpleasant. People come to strange and often harmful choices and beliefs when they don't have a wellspring of strength to draw from, and instead have to find it in the moment, or as is often the case, give in to the storm (excuse the purple here. It's late as hell for me). I think this is evident in just about every major online community of the past.

So as I run out of energy: I think you start thinking about some broad stances, or people here will start thinking of them for you. That "we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are" may be a dangerous sign that there isn't really a pulse on the kind of community you're building, and are accidentally just throwing together a place where people gather.

[-] alyaza@beehaw.org 21 points 2 years ago

So as I run out of energy: I think you start thinking about some broad stances, or people here will start thinking of them for you. That “we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are” may be a dangerous sign that there isn’t really a pulse on the kind of community you’re building, and are accidentally just throwing together a place where people gather.

well, the we don't know here should mostly be understood as a very literal and very to the point statement of facts. we have 10,000 users when two weeks ago we had 700. we haven't run a survey and most of the people here are new. we're working on a survey to kind of get an idea of basic demographics; as far as what kind of community we want from a moderator side of this we already have a bunch of mods on the same page about what we want and how we want to do it. we are very aware of all the headaches that community building involves. this is stuff we've spent a year thinking about on here (and probably at least another year before the community was created) and now we get to put what we thought into practice and see how it goes.

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[-] Bluejay@beehaw.org 21 points 2 years ago

Echoing the thank you for taking the time to explain and elaborate on yalls stance. I wasn't even aware of lemmy's roots - but I see beehaw's roots and that's all I care about. Looking forward to spending time and energy on kindness and love in this little space.

[-] LedgeDrop@beehaw.org 21 points 2 years ago

As one of the many New Users/Lost Redditors: Thank you for working hard to "keep the lights" and in fostering such a welcoming community.

[-] mrmanager@lemmy.today 21 points 2 years ago

I think it's the right decision.

We are not supporting fascism by using a software used by fascists. It's a tool, and it can be used to create something stunning and beautiful instead.

Lets do that.

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[-] nlm@beehaw.org 19 points 2 years ago

Sounds very reasonable to me.

On mostly subbed to Bewhaw communities with some Lemmy.world and one or two lemmy.ml so far and I haven't noticed ant nastiness anywhere else so far. If it would start becoming common I'd just cut ties with those communities or maybe even all communities from a specific instance if it's gone that far.

I'm hopeful that Beehaw will stay wholesome and probably most other instances as well.

It would be kind if neatto have the ability to personally block instances as well as communities in the future but so far it's not needed. Plus I'm sure our administration would cut ties with instances that manage to actually turn bad.

If anyone is really bothered by the creators of Lemmy and don't want to use their product there are always kbib I suppose? When their federation is working again you should be able to sub to all your favorite lemmy communities there too right?

So.. not sure what my point with this post is except that I'm happy with the current situation.

Here's to bees! 🍻

[-] satouru@beehaw.org 18 points 2 years ago

That’s a very sensible approach IMHO and resonates in unison with my own opinions on the matter, so I couldn’t be happier about this post!

I have to say that I was a bit worried after the creation of /c/socialism, not because of the ideology itself (which, to be fair, is probably one of the political groups I feel the closest to, but that’s not the issue), but because I was worried that it was an “official endorsement” and political affiliation of Beehaw, and would create drama, discourse or echo chambers.

This post proves that it was not the case or even the intention, and that’s really reassuring. It might still cause issues as people from other political sides (rightly) ask for other communities to be created, which is not a problem in itself, but might still create conflict and discontent in either side.

The explanation in this post makes me quite confident that you’ll be able to handle these challenges in a smart and sensible way, though. Thank you for that, admins! I’m glad that I picked the instance I did.

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[-] dollop_of_cream@beehaw.org 18 points 2 years ago

Bravo, I couldn't care less about the historical context of the tool. I do care deeply that we have no hate.

[-] TuxOfStars@beehaw.org 18 points 2 years ago

Wow thanks so much for putting these thoughts out there with all the complexity and in open language. I also (yes progressive left here) thought about the other sites and tools I use and made the decision to go with beehaw because of the community. As you say it's a messy colonialism-coloured world in many ways so the best place to start is with community values.

Thanks for your work

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[-] reka@beehaw.org 16 points 2 years ago

I'd just like to commend you on your choice of language here. You're more diplomatic than most politicians! Well expressed and I support the principals you put forward.

[-] Penguincoder@beehaw.org 14 points 2 years ago

The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral.

The platform is a tool, much as anything else is. The intent and message is what separate the use of tools. BeeHaw has an amazing intent and purpose. Creation or developer of the tools should not factor into using such.

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this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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