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Respect (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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"Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority”

and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person”

and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay."

-a 15yo autistic girl experiencing ABA therapy

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[-] kr4ster@lemmy.world 121 points 7 months ago

A quote from a book that I'm currently enjoying: "Do you mean 'respect' or 'obedience'?"

[-] uranibaba@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago

Are you enjoying He Who Fights With Monsters?

[-] Enkrod@feddit.de 3 points 7 months ago

Best webnovels ever!

[-] uranibaba@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Agreed!

[-] kr4ster@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Yeah, great series!

[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

Maybe “obsequious.”

[-] RiikkaTheIcePrincess@pawb.social 74 points 7 months ago

Ohey, familiar. Lately getting that particular bit of equivocation from my own abusive "family" who've been threatening everything from having me jailed to having me "institutionalized," calling the cops on me to evict me without notice, physical intimidation... Turns out "no" is a grievous offense to such people. The whole "children as property" thing is vile, absurd that some clearly think giving birth yields the ultimate entitlement, to an entire person and their life. I wonder if not getting diagnosed is a 'blessing in disguise' :| Tried for a decade or two to tell BioMom I thought I was 'on the spectrum' but always just got bullied out of ever seeing a doc. "There is NOTHING wrong with you!!" she'd say, every time. So now I'm a wreck 'cause two people screwed and entitled themselves to getting by with this crap (and more besides). I hope that person manages better.

...Could really use help escaping before I become a data point, actually :-\

[-] Icalasari@fedia.io 51 points 7 months ago

I'd try to avoid getting an official diagnosis until you are free - Autism CAN be used as a way to deem a person incompentent and unable to handle their own living situation, causing a guardian to be assigned power of attourney and control over finances

Source: I have Autism and thankfully am lucky my mother isn't insane as she has effective power of attourney

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 7 months ago

I wish you luck! Shit's hard, especially in the US.

[-] TheFriar@lemm.ee 13 points 7 months ago

I mean, this is dicey, being online, being (presumably) a young woman. So it might be tough finding support online. But check local anarchist groups in your area. If you’re seriously in that kind of trouble, it might be worth getting out, maybe even with a friends’ family you trust. But if things are dire…do what you can to find a safer place to be.

[-] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 12 points 7 months ago

Ugh that's terrible.

I'm tryna think what could be helpful here. Without knowing your situation better, I am not sure which of these apply.

If there is DV going on, National domestic violence hotline - https://www.thehotline.org/

Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255, or connect to emergency community services by calling 211.

The Autism Society's National Helpline to learn about resources and services in your area - https://autismsociety.org/contact-us/

I hope something here helps. Really sorry you're going through this. :(

[-] Diplomjodler@feddit.de 39 points 7 months ago

What's ABA theory? But anyway, spot on.

[-] Icalasari@fedia.io 45 points 7 months ago

From a quick search, it's basically a therapy where, instead of figuring out why the patient is upset, you train them like a dog. And not even the training where you do gentle redirection from bad behaviours. The kind where you whap the "patient" (ie victim) for being "abnormal" so they effectively become a nervous wreck who does as you please to avoid being hurt

[-] Diplomjodler@feddit.de 35 points 7 months ago

Sounds like every conservative's wet dream.

[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

That sounds more like the reason why a person would need a therapist to begin with, rather than any kind of actual treatment.

[-] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Note that even what we pejoratively call "training like a dog" is so obsolete that I've seen/read more than one dog trainer get a bit offended for comparing their profession to ABA. Ultimately, the problem with ABA is that it assumes that the object to be worked with isn't a subject worthy of being considered sentient, or of being capable of accurately expressing their needs or preferences, or that their mental processes are either too obscure or too wrong to even begin to take them into consideration, but rather that it's just a very simple organism that you have to punish or reward until it learns to pretend to appear "human enough" in your eyes.

You'd think we would have shelved it already when we already know a lot in the differences in the mental processes of autistic people.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 30 points 7 months ago

*therapy. Sounds like some sort of "Autism cure" by christians. Which would be as effective and tortuous as "Gay convertion therapy"

[-] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 8 points 7 months ago

I'm going to disagree with the other comment and claim that you've made a very good observation. Even though conversion therapies and ABA may somewhat differ in their methods, the both of them are born from the basis of wanting to use operant conditioning on humans, and ignore everything else that we've learned about the psychology and neurology of humans that explain why it's a dogshit idea.

[-] EmptySlime 8 points 7 months ago

Some people think it's some kind of autism cure. It's just understanding the reasons behind behaviors in order to increase behaviors that are desirable and decrease behaviors that are undesirable. Problems could arise from what ends up being defined as undesirable behavior and how that reinforcement is done but that's true of basically anything with the goal of changing behaviors.

My wife is autistic and studied it herself because it helped her understand all the "social bullshit" as she called it.

[-] Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works 9 points 7 months ago

Approaching it from the point of view of the autistic person trying to understand the traditional social interaction behaviors, to mimic them by choice for their own profit, sounds beneficial. Approaching it from a goal of forcing the autistic person to behave according to traditional social interactions for the benefit of others and the profit of the therapist, does not.

[-] EmptySlime 7 points 7 months ago

Pretty much yeah. That's the problem and how it can become a very bad thing. Same as really any method that seeks to shape behaviors. Are you targeting this behavior because it actually causes distress and interferes with the autistic person's enjoyment of life? Or are you just trying to breed conformity for the sake of conformity?

[-] FilterItOut@thelemmy.club 18 points 7 months ago

The others have pretty much answered about it, but specifically, it's a very intense, very personal therapy, with some sessions lasting up to 8 hours. It's typically one-on-one with the therapist, who will be observing every behavior and rewarding behaviors that are desired. I haven't heard of any that do it around here, but I am sure some therapists 'punish' for behaviors that they do not want to see again.

As was noted in the other replies, it can be extremely demeaning to reduce a person to their behaviors alone, and a great abyss lies next to the feet of any therapist that easily conceals abusive or immoral practices... and those feet are on a slippery slope of scree.

[-] realbadat@programming.dev 9 points 7 months ago

Applied Behavior Analysis therapy.

[-] deadbeef79000@lemmy.nz 2 points 7 months ago

That sounds like a euphemism for hitting people.

[-] realbadat@programming.dev 2 points 7 months ago

It does still allow for aversives, so... Kinda?

[-] realbadat@programming.dev 1 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Edit: This response was for a different reply, little app goof going on.

[-] VubDapple@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago
[-] bort@sopuli.xyz 3 points 7 months ago

so... like CBT, but you don't enjoy the torture-part nearly as much?

[-] VubDapple@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

It's a branch of behaviorism but it is a distinct branch from CBT. CBT involves cognition and behavior analysts don't work with thoughts, just behaviors. Like any therapy, it can be misused or it can be helpful, depending on your skill and sensitivity as a therapist. Behavior therapies are not about torture. They are therapies and aim to be helpful. Your mileage may vary though depending on what you want from therapy and how skillful your therapist is.

[-] Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works 3 points 7 months ago

I think you got wooshed, cause I'm pretty sure the CBT being referred to is cock and ball torture.

Though maybe I got wooshed, I'm not 100% sure.

[-] VubDapple@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Sometimes you get wooshed I guess

[-] bort@sopuli.xyz 1 points 7 months ago

I am surprised how well this played out.

Though maybe I got wooshed, I’m not 100% sure.

yes, I was aiming exactly for the ambiguity between the 2 meanings of CBT.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 29 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

This puts into words something that always bothered me in early school.

[-] MalReynolds@slrpnk.net 26 points 7 months ago

Tangential, but relevant I think.

“And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”

“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”

“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”

“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”

“But they starts with thinking about people as things…”

― Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum

All too often, people who identify as an authority do so because they think of people as owned things. An ugly situation somewhat ameliorated by Celine's Second Law "Effective communication is only possible among equals."

[-] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 23 points 7 months ago

"If you don't respect the privileges I think I ought to have in my position in the social hierarchy, I won't respect the rights I might be willing to grant to someone in your position in the social hierarchy."

[-] Lightdm@feddit.de 22 points 7 months ago

Isn't this nearly verbatim from an old tumblr post? Or is that the girl being quoted?

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 7 months ago

Yes, that tumblr is gone now. Someone linked to a quote of it in tumblr in the replies on mastodon

[-] fffact@lemmy.world 20 points 7 months ago

Her name? Albert Einstein

this post was submitted on 25 Mar 2024
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