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this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
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No Stupid Questions
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This may not be a popular response but when did the nazi regime stop? When did China stop with it's cleansing? America and manifest destiny? I could go on... Humanity needs to realize that we are pretty shitty in general and can't be trusted when it comes to hatred, entitlement, and tribalism.
The solution is a neutral third party with sufficient power to stop any country's bullshit through economic and military (actual) peacekeeping... which doesn't exist nor will it ever.
So the short answer is they will stop when the cleansing is complete.
After the deed is done we as 'civilized' nations will lament the tragedy and promise change... until the media cycle washes all those sins down the drain and it will be forgotten until next time.
I am in no way saying what's going on is right...anytime massive amounts of life is taken it's horrible. With that being said you realize that there isn't a single country in the entire world that wasn't built on the blood of others? Every civilization that's here now destroyed some other one. People act like they live in some place that asked nicely to have the land they have.
Oh, I'm fully aware. Tribalism is the lizard brain going deeeep in the paint. The problem is this: peaceful culture doesn't fight back - aggressive culture exploits this: which one thrives? We have systematically bred for and codified our warlike nature. This is the result. Is it fixable? Many have tried. Our history books are littered with both failed attempts and their distorted remains. All I can say for certain is that the way the majority of countries are structured... isn't it. This is fundamentally why achieving a fix is nearly impossible at scale: tribalism. Even if we are wrong it's our wrong and we don't want to lose it. This is rooted in fear of change which from a survival aspect makes sense... but becomes detrimental at scale.
I agree with what you're saying and it's too bad most people are too stupid to move forward with that mindset because I for one would rather we could all get along but for invisible reasons many people can't..which is in itself quite unintelligent
No. Moral. States
This is the most reasonable approach, but as seen with the UN, wich as the sum of its parts failed to keep dictatorships out wich now basically control everything but the security Council and the ICJ, its a Utopist approach sadly. There cant be a peace unless Israel takes over Palestine and treats the people that live there now as equal (wich they do already btw, the myth about apartheid is BS there are many Arab Palestinians living in Israel and many went to work in Israel from gaza) but the problem with the surrounding terrorists is another problem.
The claim of Israeli apartheid does not pertain to the status of Israeli Arabs fyi. It pertains to de facto Israeli control of Gaza and the West Bank, where any time they want the IDF can exercise as much control as they want, by virtue of superior firepower.
Hamas, for instance, only persisted because the Israelis allowed it. Israel controlled the majority of access to the regions, and could and did unilaterally police them with military force at will.
Yeah shure because Hamas isnt constantly firing rockets into Israel... If there is a defakto control how exactly would the 7th October have happened...
This is just idiotic.
De facto control does not mean 100% control over every event that happens. People are still humans, and capable of making errors. It is not mind reading/mind control powers, those are still impossible.
Yeah shure...
Israel has defakto 0 control over Gaza except for the borders normally. Everything inside is controlled by Hamas. And if you think otherwise you have never been there and you don't know anything about it.
Except they would routinely send in military forces to capture terrorist suspects in a process they referred to as "mowing the grass". It's even more pronounced in the West Bank, where the Israeli settlements are thoroughly intermingled with the Palestinian ones, and the Palestinians had relatively few powers over their own security.
It's not a simple thing, unfortunately. Middle Eastern politics seldom are, just in general.
The civilians in Palestinia in general are victims, thats clear, but the reason they are is hamas and the narrative they propagate about the victim hood that got somehow transferred through generations just as their state as refugees would have according to them.
But yes the settlement thing is a shitshow, but nither side recognized the existence of the other and both claim the possession of the entire area, however, Israel clearly has more rights to it due to the fact that the people in Gaza and the other parts aren't the people that lived there before Israel, they are mostly the descendants of the Arabs that attacked Israel shortly after it was declared a state, with the intention of a genocide. The original Palestinians live in Israel (many of them btw killed on the 7th October pogrom/genocide attempt) and have the same rights as the Christians, jews and everyone else, Israel is a super diverse country with lots of immigrants from all over the world. The claims about apartheid by Hamas (supported by un) are absolutely outlandish and just not true.
Oh and... When you have terrorists as you neighborhood you gotta make shure they don't plot teroristic shit and remove the ones that do. That doesn't mean anything about control thats just trying to keep a never ending Forrest fire within certain boundaries.
The claim of Israeli apartheid is not a hamas claim, it's acknowledged by various Israelis as well. Neither Gaza nor, especially the West Bank, has had full independence in many years.
Note, I am not talking about any Israeli citizens. I am talking about Israeli non-citizens who live under Israeli restrictions and off-and-on military control. This is the nature of apartheid. A people that is separate, but not fully independent. An in-between state of conquest, where you're sort-of conquered but not really and have some, but not full, freedoms.
Uhhh autonomous regions that don't see themselves as part of a country and behave like that are obviously not treated like citizens... Thats not apartheid thats common sense. And Israel blockade of Gaza is 100% justified because hamas uses basically everything as weapon transport.
Except it is not under full Palestinian control either. Some things are controlled by Palestinians, other things are indeed controlled by Israelis. When a country is exercising partial control over citizens that are not its own, something odd is happening.
You can justify it if you like, but it is not the normal way of things where free people are concerned.
No its not normal and people living in a country governed by terrorists are never free, be gay in the autonomous region and you get to choose between being thrown of a building or hung or something worse...
There is no such thing as freedom as long as there are terrorists and as long as most support them.
Oh and both Israel and the autonomous region do claim ownership of each others territory and by that the people, so. Yes. Its complicated.
Extremely complicated, certainly. But I hope my point that the apartheid claim, very specifically, is pretty hard to argue with comes through. It does not refer to any Israeli citizens, that's a separate topic. It is not strictly hamas propaganda, it's just a criticism of one part of a very complicated and difficult situation. The line that it is propaganda is actually itself, propaganda.
The only way to make it untrue was if Palestinians had full legal control over the West Bank, which they do not. Gaza is a murkier situation. It's really about the West Bank though, not hamas or Gaza.
I meant the claim some people propagate about the apartheid within Israeli society, wich is propaganda. The claim that there is some sort of apartheid between Israeli and Palestinians is nothing to argue about, thats basically a fact, the reasons however are another thing.
The legal autonomy of Palestinia would mean Israels acknowledgement of Palestinia as a country, wich should not happen, as it would likely cause even more problems. In my personal opinion Israel needs to take action and remove the autonomous region from the map, there is no working two state solution as it will always lead to problems. True peace will only be possible when integration happens and the terrorists are hunted down to extinction or until they only exist in prison forever.
This is also why i strongly condemn the acknowledgement of Palestinia, especially after 7th October. This only fuels the Hamas and Islamistic jihad recruitment massively "It works!" works wonders in such cases, thats why it should not work.
The only issue with that is Israel's wish to remain a Jewish state. If they added all of those Palestinians as free and equal citizens, then that would shift the demographics of Israel sufficiently to put that at risk. So, they have to choose between values of freedom and equality, vs being a Jewish state, vs giving up that land.
Or they could attempt to remove all the people somehow.
No easy solutions, unfortunately. As usual for the Middle East.
I mean most of the hardcore islamists will either be killed as terrorists or flee the state Israel anyway (so likely about 50%). And in the end i can absolutely understand Israel regarding this goal. The goal is to keep their own citizens safe from the terrorism and from the antisemitism that is very big in the world. Israel got this territory from UK and they still have to fight for it. The entire region around Israeli borders is no mans land due to the very frequent bombardings from hamas and hezbolla. The Iron dome can only take out about 90% and the regions near border can't be protected due to the warning time (10 seconds at max) the region is completely evaluated in the month after 7th October over 10.000 rockets Rained on Israel. And the daily average is about 100 to 200 since.
No peace is possible as long as these terrorists are alive and i absolutely hope Israel ignores all the outside "criticism" regarding the military operation and just removes them now.
One thing is easy, terrorists need to be gone for peace.
I do agree that terrorism is a problem that needs to be dealt with. The problem is when innocents get caught up in the middle. If you just call a whole people or whole religion terrorist as an excuse to get rid of them, you're just a generic conquerer, and a liar on top.
Thats not what im saying, i live with many Muslims in my neighborhood they are nice, respectful and open people, but the terrorists in Gaza and around Israel take their own civilians hostage and do stuff to endanger them on purpose. Its not possible to fight them without casualtys and collateral damages. Also these people take their religion as excuse to try to commit genocide, repeatedly.
Yes, terrorists do do those things. But some collateral damage is one thing. All the possible collateral damage is genocide. If Netanyahu tries to drive all the Palestinians away, he has become as bad as what the Jewish people fled.
Just because some bad people are doing bad things does not give you an excuse to drop bombs on everyone. That is no good.
You do not want to become just as bad as what you hate, doing whatever it takes. Or you become them. A good person must try harder.
Thats not true for several reasons but im too tired to argue all of this.
One of those points is that the original Palestinian people are already part of Israel and currently only the Arab "Palestinians" are a problem. Maybe learn more about the conflict. But this goes for 99% of the people here, most here dont know shit about the conflict.
If peace in the region means driving those people away i think its justified, the jews have been on that side for the majority of history and still are, this conflict began because the Arab Palestinians tried to commit a actual genocide against the Israeli Jewish people.
No, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict began far, far earlier than Oct 7th, that was just the most recent flare-up. It's complicated, remember?
The key is to not be evil, and to try not to kill too many people. You cannot escape the evil of killing innocent people, there is no acceptable justification. Some would be war. But too many is bad. Are the Israelis good people, or are they Huns? We shall see.
Bro, i meant the attempted genocide right after Israel was founded.
And its not evil to some day have enough about being the scapegoat for everyone and a easy target. Si vis pacem para bellum
Oh, I see. I don't know about genocide back then, it was really just various wars after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Some atrocities, but nothing into the thousands.
No, if your "enough" is just taking living space over the bones and ashes of others, you are commiting evil. There are other ways.
Nah man they tried to kill all the jews in the first Arab Israeli war. They couldn't because Israel was supported by the most important players.
What place isnt a gigantic graveyard? All modern civilizations are built on graveyards and if it takes another one to have more peace for longer thats a thing that wouldn't be too bad.
This region in particular has probably seen more war in humanitys existence than most other places did. Why blame Israel for defending themselves? If your neighbors constantly throw trash into your garden you either throw them back or get the police involved. If your neighbor is a murderous psychopath you would buy a weapon to defend yourself, and you would use it when necessary. In that case, you killed someone for your living place.
Oh and Israel didn't take shit, it was given to them by England after WW2 and as said, they constantly need to fight for what is rightfully theirs.
Israel isn't fighting just the bad neighbor though, they're using that bad neighbor as an excuse to kill many good neighbors too. All Palestinians are not all bad, some are innocent.
They actually weren't given it by Britain after WW2 either, that's not even close. Fresh Jewish settlement in the area began somewhere around the 1900s-1920s, and they actually purchased the land with gathered funds for the purpose. Life between the Jewish settlers and the Palestinians was initially peaceful. I'll warn you, I'm a history guy, I love this stuff.
History is an ugly thing, certainly, the important thing is that we do better, and learn from the errors. This is how we can avoid living in such miserable times as our ancestors were often forced to, so often making foolish choices and burning their own countries to the ground out of hubris, like Germany or Japan in WW2 did.
The first Arab-Israeli War was a little more complicated than that. Jewish militias were actually conquering land at that point in something called Plan Dalet, it was something of a civil war in the broader region between the Jewish and Palestinian factions. After the Israeli declaration of independence, yes, a large coalition of countries did try to eject them. It was won by the Israelis though, and they were rewarded for that with gains. These wars do not give excuse to kill the descendents of those people, though, right? Each person should be judged for what they do, not their fathers, or their neighbors.
Don't think the Israelis are innocent angels that never conquered or committed atrocities in their early history either. It was a very ugly time with both sides being pretty horrendous at different points. Modern Israel has taken steps at different points to be better than that though, returning to the peaceful ways of the original settlers under people like Rabin, before Netanyahu took over. They can do that again, it is not too late.
Ukraine is killing many Russians that are probably "good people" as well...
The argument makes no sense and im not going to take this any further.
Probably not that many, actually, most of the Russian casualties are uniformed soldiers. All the Russians would need to do to stop the death would be withdraw anyway. Can the Gazans withdraw anywhere, or no?
Probably... Thats just bs.
Israel recognised Palestinian civilian and security control of the West bank in the Oslo accords from the 90's. They are blatantly shitting on their own promises whenever a genocidic occupier or their enabling security forces set foot on the West Bank without express permission from the Palestinian West Bank government.
Yeah the promise to ignore all genocidal attempts, rocket barrages and what not. You are not just a clown, you are the entire fucking clown academy.
"rocket barrages" lol that's rich.
Then Israel responds by murdering 100x civilians including women and children.
Complete disproportionate response after Iron Dome basically prevents any Israelis from dying from those so-called "rocket barrages."
Each time it's one or two Israeli soldiers killed by the one rocket out of 40 that made it in, and by a week later 1,200 Palestinian civilians are murdered. Cool.
Over and over for 5+ decades. It's just objective fact, the numbers are publicly available. I don't forget, so the people in Gaza and the West Bank sure as shit don't (between fighting off "settlers" with AR-15s from New Jersey storming their villages in the middle of the night). Israel created every Palestinian terrorist after decades of oppression, displacement, apartheid, and dire hopelessness. Almost like it's what they wanted.
And now literal genocide. Their end goal. A final solution if you will.
I mean if you born in Gaza your birth needs to be registered with Israel. Otherwise you will lack the necessary documents to get through the checkpoints.
Obviously, Gaza or Palestinia in general doesn't give out recognized papers. Its a autonomous region for a reason.
They wouldn't be allowed to enter any other country without said documents either.
There is no actual reason why it should ne otherwise.
The Apartheid is very much real, and, while to a much lesser extent than the Palestinian Occupied Territories, also applies to the Palestinian Citizens of Israel
Other reports about how Israel is an Apartheid State:
Human Rights Watch Report
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amnesty_International
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem
I think you might need to read this i won't read your comment or open those links, your sources are very openly and clearly biased and known to be very antisemitic and to hate Israel. There is nothing to gain from them.
Criticism of the Human Rights Abuses of the Israeli State and Anti-zionism are not antisemitism. You are choosing to be willfully ignorant. Israel does NOT represent all Jewish people, nor does their actions. There have been prominent Jewish people extremely critical of Zionism since it's inception, are you seriously saying they are antisemitic too?
Israel is the one that intentionally conflates the two in order to deflect from criticizm. When Israel commits war crimes, or human rights abuses, or land grabbing, they are the ones that claim they do so for all Jewish people. When Zionist actions are criticized, they call it antisemitic. The conflation of the two is genuinely antisemitic, as the actions of Israel in no way represent all Jewish people.
If you don't want to be naive, I suggest you read the reports by human rights organizations. They are not antisemitic, unless you think advocates for a Secular Bi-National State with equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians is also antisemitic, which is insane.
Year before Oct 7 - Jewish Voice for Peace
2023 is 'deadliest year' for Palestinian children say human rights groups (Oct 6th)
HRW Events of 2022 and HRW Events of 2023
Jewish voice for peace is a super left wing anti Israel organization.
New Arab is a shitshow. Also yeah shure the 10k rockets hamas fired from gaza after 7th had a 20% failure rate... They are usually fired from residential areas or sometimes from school/hospitals. So yeah shure many gaza children died. "OH SAVE THE CHILDREN!" they screamed as they murdered children from another religion/ethnicity...
HRW again, im not reading that, i cant even, ive blocked their domains in my DNS due to given reason provided.
Oh and yes i absolutely see a two state solution as absolutely impossible and borderline Antisemitic currently (after 7th October)
You are aware that what Israel is doing in Gaza is comparable to the nazi treatment of e.g. the Warsaw ghettos.... right?
Take a step back, and look at the Israeli soldiers mocking Palestinian dead, mistreating the wounded and captured, and shooting at clearly unarmed civilians for fun. All this while they brag about it on video. Look at that and tell me that it doesn't give you a sick feeling to your stomach of the type you haven't had since you saw photos of concentration camps.
There are dozens of children that have literally STARVED TO DEATH in Gaza because of Israel's actions. They're dying the same deaths that Jews were put through in concentration camps. Don't you see the horrifying irony in this?
Israel is at a point where humanitarian workers from recognised international organisations have been targeted and killed, and they brush it off as a "mistake".
I cannot think about anything in the past 70 years that compares to what Israel is doing, and I hope beyond hope that some force will smite their government and armed forces such that the slaughter will stop. Because it is a slaughter. It's not a war when Israel is counting its dead on its fingers, while there are enough missing Palestinians in the rubble to fill a football stadium. It's just Israel wilfully bombing, burning and slaughtering, with nobody stopping them.
All this, and you have the fucking audacity to talk about antisemitism? Take a look at the world, and ask yourself how calling for an end to this can have anything to do with the religious beliefs of the perpetrators.
You are aware that you talk absolut mental diarrhea and make not a single coherent sentence in the above comment...
Oh and "THE CHILDREN!!!!!"
Im blocking you now, arguing with you is like trying to teach a wall to do a backflip.
What a class A moron. You can't even respond to a single thing they say, so it's just "mental diarrhea". Every one of your comments is evading their points so hard, your mental gymnastics would qualify you for the Special Olympics if they didn't have a minimum IQ requirement.
As a person with jewish ancestry, what you are spewing makes me feel ill. Antizionism is not antisemitism. If it were, so many jews will be antisemitic? Please, grow up.
As a person with German ancestry i kindly don't care if you personally are against it. Israel is a state and being for the abolishment of Israel is antisemitism, even from Jewish people.
Maybe learn about the history of a place outside of the Islamnazi propaganda.
Oh, I learned plenty, and not from Islamic centered resources. But you wouldn't be able to discern it because you are speaking from hate, not from facts. Besides, there are many jewish academics who support Palestine and are against the genocide of Palestinians. And neither they nor I claim that supporting them is antisemitic or that it requires the genocide of the Israeli people. Only someone with a warped and dellusional understanding of history could make the claims you make.
The UN while created with noble intentions certainly fell for the paradox of tolerance. They tolerate the dictatorships and human rights abusers because if they didn't they'd be much less empowered to take action against them, or worse they'd form their own competing UN made up of nations motivated to join them and you'd just end up with another NATO and Warsaw Pact for example. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Ultimately the challenge comes down to how do you ultimately tame the leaders of the world who have absolute power. The founding fathers of the United States of America thought they had the solution with democracy and the many checks and balances they implemented into this new form of government they setup, but even that has its challenges and failures that they never could have forseen. The UN was the next experiment, trying to take the similar principles onto the world stage, and it's been less successful (but at least has had some successes)
Yes absolutely but the dictatorships and shitshow countries (china for example) keep growing in numbers, if this trend isn't reversed fast, UN fails as a whole and there is no saving.
It would be better in my opinion to have two options, democratic union and whatever the dictatorships do with each other, because the only thing that united them is being against democracy and Israel. UN, in my personal opinion, already failed as a whole and is beyond saving.
The big part of a government is, that it has power to enforce whatever it decides, UN gladly does not have any meaningful power, Israel would be gone by now otherwise.
Well those successes slowly but steadily crumble away, the most institutions have failed, WHO is doing its job only half assed (especially the making shure hospital aren't used as military bases) the human rights Council is majorly filled with people that think human rights are shit and only need to apply it when it fits against the west or Israel specifically, the General Assembly is almost the same. (fun fact, the day of the Russian attack on Ukraine the general assembly voted about condemning Israel for something... Again. Most resolutions are against Israel.) Oh and the entire UNHWR wich is definitely more than partially responsible for hamas doing what they do.
UN isn't even a diplomatic forum anymore.