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this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
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No Stupid Questions
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The claim of Israeli apartheid is not a hamas claim, it's acknowledged by various Israelis as well. Neither Gaza nor, especially the West Bank, has had full independence in many years.
Note, I am not talking about any Israeli citizens. I am talking about Israeli non-citizens who live under Israeli restrictions and off-and-on military control. This is the nature of apartheid. A people that is separate, but not fully independent. An in-between state of conquest, where you're sort-of conquered but not really and have some, but not full, freedoms.
Uhhh autonomous regions that don't see themselves as part of a country and behave like that are obviously not treated like citizens... Thats not apartheid thats common sense. And Israel blockade of Gaza is 100% justified because hamas uses basically everything as weapon transport.
Except it is not under full Palestinian control either. Some things are controlled by Palestinians, other things are indeed controlled by Israelis. When a country is exercising partial control over citizens that are not its own, something odd is happening.
You can justify it if you like, but it is not the normal way of things where free people are concerned.
No its not normal and people living in a country governed by terrorists are never free, be gay in the autonomous region and you get to choose between being thrown of a building or hung or something worse...
There is no such thing as freedom as long as there are terrorists and as long as most support them.
Oh and both Israel and the autonomous region do claim ownership of each others territory and by that the people, so. Yes. Its complicated.
Extremely complicated, certainly. But I hope my point that the apartheid claim, very specifically, is pretty hard to argue with comes through. It does not refer to any Israeli citizens, that's a separate topic. It is not strictly hamas propaganda, it's just a criticism of one part of a very complicated and difficult situation. The line that it is propaganda is actually itself, propaganda.
The only way to make it untrue was if Palestinians had full legal control over the West Bank, which they do not. Gaza is a murkier situation. It's really about the West Bank though, not hamas or Gaza.
I meant the claim some people propagate about the apartheid within Israeli society, wich is propaganda. The claim that there is some sort of apartheid between Israeli and Palestinians is nothing to argue about, thats basically a fact, the reasons however are another thing.
The legal autonomy of Palestinia would mean Israels acknowledgement of Palestinia as a country, wich should not happen, as it would likely cause even more problems. In my personal opinion Israel needs to take action and remove the autonomous region from the map, there is no working two state solution as it will always lead to problems. True peace will only be possible when integration happens and the terrorists are hunted down to extinction or until they only exist in prison forever.
This is also why i strongly condemn the acknowledgement of Palestinia, especially after 7th October. This only fuels the Hamas and Islamistic jihad recruitment massively "It works!" works wonders in such cases, thats why it should not work.
The only issue with that is Israel's wish to remain a Jewish state. If they added all of those Palestinians as free and equal citizens, then that would shift the demographics of Israel sufficiently to put that at risk. So, they have to choose between values of freedom and equality, vs being a Jewish state, vs giving up that land.
Or they could attempt to remove all the people somehow.
No easy solutions, unfortunately. As usual for the Middle East.
I mean most of the hardcore islamists will either be killed as terrorists or flee the state Israel anyway (so likely about 50%). And in the end i can absolutely understand Israel regarding this goal. The goal is to keep their own citizens safe from the terrorism and from the antisemitism that is very big in the world. Israel got this territory from UK and they still have to fight for it. The entire region around Israeli borders is no mans land due to the very frequent bombardings from hamas and hezbolla. The Iron dome can only take out about 90% and the regions near border can't be protected due to the warning time (10 seconds at max) the region is completely evaluated in the month after 7th October over 10.000 rockets Rained on Israel. And the daily average is about 100 to 200 since.
No peace is possible as long as these terrorists are alive and i absolutely hope Israel ignores all the outside "criticism" regarding the military operation and just removes them now.
One thing is easy, terrorists need to be gone for peace.
I do agree that terrorism is a problem that needs to be dealt with. The problem is when innocents get caught up in the middle. If you just call a whole people or whole religion terrorist as an excuse to get rid of them, you're just a generic conquerer, and a liar on top.
Thats not what im saying, i live with many Muslims in my neighborhood they are nice, respectful and open people, but the terrorists in Gaza and around Israel take their own civilians hostage and do stuff to endanger them on purpose. Its not possible to fight them without casualtys and collateral damages. Also these people take their religion as excuse to try to commit genocide, repeatedly.
Yes, terrorists do do those things. But some collateral damage is one thing. All the possible collateral damage is genocide. If Netanyahu tries to drive all the Palestinians away, he has become as bad as what the Jewish people fled.
Just because some bad people are doing bad things does not give you an excuse to drop bombs on everyone. That is no good.
You do not want to become just as bad as what you hate, doing whatever it takes. Or you become them. A good person must try harder.
Thats not true for several reasons but im too tired to argue all of this.
One of those points is that the original Palestinian people are already part of Israel and currently only the Arab "Palestinians" are a problem. Maybe learn more about the conflict. But this goes for 99% of the people here, most here dont know shit about the conflict.
If peace in the region means driving those people away i think its justified, the jews have been on that side for the majority of history and still are, this conflict began because the Arab Palestinians tried to commit a actual genocide against the Israeli Jewish people.
No, the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict began far, far earlier than Oct 7th, that was just the most recent flare-up. It's complicated, remember?
The key is to not be evil, and to try not to kill too many people. You cannot escape the evil of killing innocent people, there is no acceptable justification. Some would be war. But too many is bad. Are the Israelis good people, or are they Huns? We shall see.
Bro, i meant the attempted genocide right after Israel was founded.
And its not evil to some day have enough about being the scapegoat for everyone and a easy target. Si vis pacem para bellum
Oh, I see. I don't know about genocide back then, it was really just various wars after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Some atrocities, but nothing into the thousands.
No, if your "enough" is just taking living space over the bones and ashes of others, you are commiting evil. There are other ways.
Nah man they tried to kill all the jews in the first Arab Israeli war. They couldn't because Israel was supported by the most important players.
What place isnt a gigantic graveyard? All modern civilizations are built on graveyards and if it takes another one to have more peace for longer thats a thing that wouldn't be too bad.
This region in particular has probably seen more war in humanitys existence than most other places did. Why blame Israel for defending themselves? If your neighbors constantly throw trash into your garden you either throw them back or get the police involved. If your neighbor is a murderous psychopath you would buy a weapon to defend yourself, and you would use it when necessary. In that case, you killed someone for your living place.
Oh and Israel didn't take shit, it was given to them by England after WW2 and as said, they constantly need to fight for what is rightfully theirs.
Israel isn't fighting just the bad neighbor though, they're using that bad neighbor as an excuse to kill many good neighbors too. All Palestinians are not all bad, some are innocent.
They actually weren't given it by Britain after WW2 either, that's not even close. Fresh Jewish settlement in the area began somewhere around the 1900s-1920s, and they actually purchased the land with gathered funds for the purpose. Life between the Jewish settlers and the Palestinians was initially peaceful. I'll warn you, I'm a history guy, I love this stuff.
History is an ugly thing, certainly, the important thing is that we do better, and learn from the errors. This is how we can avoid living in such miserable times as our ancestors were often forced to, so often making foolish choices and burning their own countries to the ground out of hubris, like Germany or Japan in WW2 did.
The first Arab-Israeli War was a little more complicated than that. Jewish militias were actually conquering land at that point in something called Plan Dalet, it was something of a civil war in the broader region between the Jewish and Palestinian factions. After the Israeli declaration of independence, yes, a large coalition of countries did try to eject them. It was won by the Israelis though, and they were rewarded for that with gains. These wars do not give excuse to kill the descendents of those people, though, right? Each person should be judged for what they do, not their fathers, or their neighbors.
Don't think the Israelis are innocent angels that never conquered or committed atrocities in their early history either. It was a very ugly time with both sides being pretty horrendous at different points. Modern Israel has taken steps at different points to be better than that though, returning to the peaceful ways of the original settlers under people like Rabin, before Netanyahu took over. They can do that again, it is not too late.
Ukraine is killing many Russians that are probably "good people" as well...
The argument makes no sense and im not going to take this any further.
Probably not that many, actually, most of the Russian casualties are uniformed soldiers. All the Russians would need to do to stop the death would be withdraw anyway. Can the Gazans withdraw anywhere, or no?
Probably... Thats just bs.
You should actually look into why they're all still there then, even though self-preservation says that's a terrible idea.
What?
There's immigrants moving all over the world, right? Going to Europe, America, etc. Why are Gazans still there, where there's not enough food, fresh water, there's only tents to live in, and a war rages around them? Millions of them. Don't the mothers want their babies to live? Why don't they flee like everyone else in the same sort of situation?
It's not hard to answer, just look it up when you get around to it.
I'd say, but I'm trying to wind down the conversation.
Because they stay there thinking its their right. Thinking they deserve to destroy Israel.
Also, before hamas pulled off the 7th October shitshow Gaza and Palestine was relatively save and began to economicaly get on track.
Also most refugees are a very very small portion of the people from a area, most stay. Even in Mariupol Ukraine there are still people, even in actual warzones where the invading military (Russia) hunts civilians.
Right now they can't leave because of the terrorist attack, nobody wants those terrorists to get away into another country.
Why do jews still exist even after being literally hunted for most of history?
Not hamas, Gazans that have no hamas affiliation. Could they enter Egypt? Could they enter Israel? Are there any other neighboring countries? Could they get on a boat, or a plane?
While yes, some always stay behind, a great many flee. Most do not stick around. Mariupol was encircled quickly, look at the towns in Eastern Ukraine where they had a lot of warning before the enemy arrived. Jews usually fled, that's why Israel was founded in the first place, right? A place to flee to.
At any rate, in Gaza, almost nobody has fled. Some should flee, right? But they actually cannot. Physically cannot, prevented by other people.
Maybe you should do a little research about why they don't go away and why nobody from outside takes them. And yes Hamas. Hamas is the root of problems. Btw, many gaza refugees live in Europe... And they despise most people still in gaza saying "these are the people responsible for all of the deaths, its not Israel shooting civilians left and right, its not Israelis going into "Palestine" with the IDF and spitting on dead people or killing them" this is a direct quote from one of the people i work with, he is a refuge from gaza, and he said that going out is not hard (was, currently it definitely is) and that they are allowed to leave into Israel when they want to move away.
Most don't want to go, it would be admitting defeat after almost 70 years of trying to get rid of Israel.
Shure Israel is blocking the entrys and exits now and was strictly regulating before. Iran already sends hamas weapons through tunnels, don't need the terrorists to leave and regroup outside of gaza for a attack on Israel. Don't need more Iranian weapons in Gaza, especially not even more Rockets.
You people argue that Israel should let a region with majority support for a terrorist organization, especially their genocide attacks, do whatever they want.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-over-70-palestinians-still-maintain-hamas-correct-to-commit-oct-7-atrocities/ *
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-poll-shows-palestinian-support-hamas-still-high-despite-mounting-death-toll *
(* same poll different sources)
The insanity is beyond reason.
I'm sorry for upsetting you, but don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing to let Gazans "do whatever they want", I have not said that or anything similar. If you remember, I said earlier that terrorists need to be dealt with, right?
It's those innocents, those that are not part of hamas, that's the sticking point. For whatever good or bad reasons they cannot leave, the fact is that today, they 100% cannot leave. So, they should not be callously butchered and/or starved simply because of what their fathers and neighbors have done.
Yes but they aren't being starved on purpose, Israel isn't targeting the civilians, that would be super counterproductive for them as more people would join the terrorists. Also Israel, contrary to popular belief does not have enough material to waste it on civilians. They fight a four front war against the Palestinian terrorists, the ones from Lebanon(hezbolla), the ones from the Egyptian border (hezbolla) and whatever Iran is currently plotting.
There is food getting into Gaza, its not enough for everyone, hut they try. They have to keep themselves save first however, you can't help anyone when you are dead. Nato is even airlifting supplys into Gaza where its not possible to get trucks with food.
The narrative being pushed by hamas is "Israel kills all our people with bombs and starves the children" this is textbook recruitment propaganda. They celebrate every single dead jew btw.
Yes, hamas is not good people, I do not trust them. I don't trust politicians either though, especially the more extreme ones.
That's why I say what sort of people the Israelis are remains to be seen. We don't know yet. We won't know until this is all over and we see what has become of those Gazans that are innocent. Will they be alive or dead? That will be telling.
Well, most are alive, most dead are terrorists or where used by them as human shields.
I do trust politicians waaaay more than terrorists. Even the extreme ones. Because they can be hold accountable. Terrorists are by definition illegal by Geneva conventions. Especially because they do target civilians.
A politician loyal to his own laws and courts, sure, I absolutely trust them more. They're aren't all, though. Ultimately a terrorist and a politician with no regard for their own law are very similar. Power-mad. A terrorist can even become a politician, it happens sometimes.