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Just a reminder
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2024
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It was unanimous because Russia abstained. Putin loves the refocus on Israel while he continues his genocidal war crimes in Ukraine under the US media radar.
For those who haven’t been keeping up, Russia has abducted 700,000 Ukrainian children to be raised as Russians in foster homes since the war began. It’s genocide on a scale 20 times larger than Palestine, and isn’t making national headlines in the US due to the focus on Israel.
The US formally declared this as genocide in the House of Representatives with a 390-9 vote in April by invoking the UN Genocide Convention, and the ICC has issued arrest warrants. Did you see any headlines about that?
Russia is also the largest investor in the sanctioned Iran economy that is directly funding Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis.
I was sceptical of this claim so I did some research - 700,000 is almost certainly too high, but other than that it's disturbingly true:
The 700,000 number comes from a Russian parliamentarian in 2023, and refers to orphaned and abandoned children Russia has 'protected' from conflict zones in Ukraine. A later Russian report walked this back a bit, and claimed that most of this number were children accompanied by family voluntarily escaping the fighting by feeling into Russia.
Obviously we should be sceptical of what Russia says about this, but this is not the same number as the number of children abducted - not even Ukraine alleges it to be this high.
The number of children abducted and forcibly deported was officially reported by Kyev to be 19,000 to 20,000 at the time of the above claim based on the data (nearly 30,000 now). The real number is almost certainly higher - many Ukranian officials believe the actual amount is higher, with one saying it may be into the 'hundreds of thousands'. A US report in 2022 estimates that Russia has "interrogated, detained, and forcibly deported... 260,000 children, from their homes to Russia"
Even if we take only the low amount that can be fairly positively stated as abductions, that's nearly 30,000 children. Various reports have shown some of these children being given new Russian identities and false birth certificates, and being put up for adoption in Russia. Some have testified to being indoctrinated and shown pro-Kremlin propaganda.
This broadly constitutes Cultural Genocide - whether it technically is or not is for academics to argue over, because the legal definition of genocide is complicated and so much is unkown.
Whether or not you want to call it a Genocide, it is undeniably a War Crime. The ICC has issued arrest warrents for Putin and Russian Children's Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova over this.
Regardless of the number, it was deemed genocide in a 390-9 vote in the House in April, by invoking the UN Genocide Convention.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/us-house-resolution-russian-abduction-of-ukrainian-children-is-genocide/
When the US congress deems there to be a genocide, the truth is always the opposite of their conclusion. If the Holocaust was going on today, congress would rule unanimously there to be no genocide.
Lol at basically citing the CIA as your source.
And yet not a peep from these “Genocide Joe” people. They’re either Russian disinformation agents, or useful idiots.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m pretty damn sure you’re confusing Americans’ inability to focus on more than one issue at a time with the seemingly catch-all “bots!” thing.
Don’t attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to stupidity/ignorance/laziness.
And you can’t even bring this up as an argument against the “gEnOciDe jOe” kids because it gets removed for “whataboutism” in almost every thread.
They have their agenda pretty locked down
I'm legit not trying to troll here, but I vaguely recall a news story last month where Biden said it's not genocide. I forget if he was referring to Ukraine or Gaza, but either way I was kind of dumbfounded like wtf.
It becomes a game of semantics. “Genocide” is not just a loaded term but it has a definition you can argue against, without disagreeing on the scope of the atrocity. Arguing about whether it fits the definition is just a redirect so we’re not talking about the scale of the suffering
He was referring to Gaza. Its amazing the number of lies $12m buys
"The news is so focused on children trapped in a war zone but they're ignoring the real issue we should be focusing on: children being safely transported out of a war zone."
Russia is taking Ukrainian children, placing them in foster care, and putting them up for adoption to be raised as Russians. This is the definition of genocide.
Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:
You are implying this is some diplomatic decision. They are being abducted. They have no choice. Again, these children are being placed in foster homes and put up for adoption to be raised as if they are Russian. This isn’t a refugee rescue operation. It’s cultural genocide. You’re either wildly obtuse, or in defense of genocide.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-aware-credible-reports-russia-is-listing-ukrainian-children-adoption-white-2024-06-12/
So you would prefer that they be left where they are, understood.
Personally I think it's good that children not be left in dangerous, traumatic situations, but if you want to classify something as "genocide" when it involves saving the lives of the "victims," then I guess I am defending "genocide." And if you wanted to call if "murder" when I take a drink of water, I guess that means I'll defend "murder" too. If you play around with words enough you can make anything look bad.
I consider people being slaughtered worse than children being raised in a culture different from that of their parents, so sue me.
You’re using a false-dilemma argument while arguing semantics over the lives of children. How many Rubles do you get per comment?
What I’d prefer is what the EU is doing by providing temporary amnesty for refugees, while they await return to their conflict-free home country.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/ukraine-refugees-eu/
No, I'm using a real-dilemma argument. If you'd care to provide an alternative to taking them out of a war zone or leaving them there, I would love to hear it.
Of course, the "everyone who disagrees with me is a secret agent" conspiracy theory. I'm not feeling particularly quippy today so I'm not going to bother making fun of it.
As I said, the EU is accepting Ukrainian refugees without cultural cleansing.
Where they'll be raised by French or German or English parents, etc. Still doesn't address your core issue.
No. Refugees are given temporary amnesty until the war is over. Then they will work with the Ukrainian government for reconnection with family or adoption.
Russia is placing them in homes that will raise them as Russians, with no intention of returning these children to Ukraine.
So you want them to stay in the orphanage system indefinitely, until the war ends.
I'm sorry but the pressing, immediate issue is the humanitarian crisis. The orphanage system of any country can only handle so many and if there are families willing to take them in, then that's better than the alternatives for them. Cultural concerns are secondary to humanitarian ones.
Also we don't really know what Russia's plans are for war orphans after the war ends. The idea that they have no intention of returning them seems like speculation on your part.
The thing that would change my mind on this is to see established precedent for how these issues have been handled in the past, during previous wars. Every war creates war orphans but not every war is classified as a genocide.
Russia is placing them in foster homes and putting them up for adoption to be raised as Russians. What is not clear about that statement? That’s not the same as temporary refugee amnesty shelter while awaiting return to their conflict-free home country.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-aware-credible-reports-russia-is-listing-ukrainian-children-adoption-white-2024-06-12/
We would prefer they go with their parents or at least family.
Which Russia is preventing by kidnapping them.
We're talking about war orphans. Generally, their family is either dead or can't be located.
What a moronic take. Those Russian must be saints taking those poor Ukrainian children after, you know, illegally invading their country, killing their parents, and destroying their cities.
I never called them saints, I only said that transporting war orphans into safety is not genocide.
What a tankie clown. To “safety”.
Being a tankie is when you consider children being adopted to parents who raise them in a safe environment "safety," in comparison to living in a war zone.
I can think of one country first in line to take them: Ukraine, or Ukrainian refugees sheltering in NATO countries. Wtf kind of fascist take are you spewing? 'Someone has to save these kids from the warzone we created; can't just give them to their extended families, those are the enemy, guess we have no choice but to do genocide '. Get the fuck out of here.
We're talking about war orphans, children whose families cannot be located.
Did they try locating the extended families, or did they just abduct thousands of children to be raised as Russians? That's a rhetorical question, they did the latter.
War orphans are not a new thing. Every war that's ever been caught has produced children who's families cannot be found, because wars are chaotic and also deadly.
Oh yeah, like how during the Iraq war when the US abducted all those Iraqi children and gave them to American families? Or when France stole all those orphans from central Africa to raise as little French kids? Or when the Canadian adoption system was flush with Afghani children they took away from their families and homeland?
Pretty sure abducting children after killing their parents has always been wrong.
If the US ever tried evacuating Iraqi orphans into the US adoption system, the right would start race riots over it. We didn't even let our collaborators in.
No, instead, the children were left in the war zone where countless numbers were killed.
This only didnt happen because Americans feel no empathy to help non-white children and families.
When has it happened in a situation that wasn't genocide? Did the British adopt thousands of German children in WW2? Were thousands of Italian children adopted away to America?
In what conflict has this ever been acceptable?
So if Israel took every Palestinian child they saw, regardless of what family they have, and brought them to Israel for an Israeli family to raise, you'd be fine with that?
I mean, it would be an improvement...
...I can't argue there. Genocide all the same, but at least without killing kids.
Russia is not doing this. We're talking about war orphans.
Fine then, if Israel took war orphans like Russia? You'd be totally fine with that?
I'd be better than the current situation, yes. It's by no means ideal, but Palestinian children would be better off being adopted by Israeli families than starving to death or being bombed or shot. My problem is with them putting them in the situation in the first place.
I mean, it's hard to argue with that. It would still be genocide, but at least kids wouldn't be dying.
God. It's fucked up.
Objection used a false comparison.
A more direct analogy would be if they were being put up for adoption by the Israeli government. That’s what makes it genocide. Once adopted, they become property of the Russian family. They’re not being returned to their homes when the war is over like the refugees who have sought amnesty in the EU.
What I'm saying is that the problem isn't moving war orphans out of a conflict zone, the problem is that there's a conflict zone in the first place.
It's not as if these orphans are some sort of "prize" to be won and brought home as spoils. Caring for them takes resources. Individual Russian families are not out there twirling their moustaches thinking, "How can I help destroy Ukrainian culture... I know! I'll adopt a child and spend years raising them as my own, that'll show 'em!"
Jesus fucking Christ. Imagine being so pro-genocide you make apologia for kidnapping literal children and ethnic cleansing.
What I'm learning from this is that libs are perfectly fine with children being left to die in an active war zone and are actively opposed to getting them to safety.