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this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
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The cops had AR15s, body armor, helmets, flash bang grenades, the works. They also outnumbered the shooter 376 to 1. The shooters vest had no armor plating.
Cool.
Now take that highly-penetrative AR15 and shoot it into a school building, knowing full well that the bullets will penetrate the walls and kill the people on the other side of the school.
Even when everyone has an AR15, the shooter still has the advantage, because he had the children hostage. There were also questions on whether the school was clear before any potential shootout (see the problem with AR15's huge amount of penetration: shooting through the attacker and hitting children in another room is a serious concern still even as SWAT arrives).
Even when you give everyone the works, the problem at play here was the AR15 in the hands of the shooter, which required the police to take a step back and rework tactics entirely.
Thinking from the perspective of the cops side will 100% give yall a ton of evidence and logical arguments to fuck up the pro-gun AR15 lobby. Just think damn it.
.223/5.56 will not penetrate a cinder block wall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Gp3hbTmXA
Also, most cops carry AR15s or a similar rifle in their cop car.
Good job highlighting your ignorance to Uvalde. Did you read the police log yet?
Read the fucking log. Have you read the log yet? What time was this radio message sent?
Interesting, but they still stood by after SWAT arrived, so your point is moot.
The original police officers tussled with a shooter with body-armor and superior AR15 firepower until they cornered him. And that wasn't good enough for yall dumbasses.
These original officers responding to the call were god damn heroes. And if anyone read the log they'd know.
Blame SWAT for being shitty and taking their time. But... even then... I have the AR15 penetrating walls / killing other people issue for good guy with gun vs bad guy with gun. I don't think its very easy or clear to figure out the wall strength, which directions are "safe to shoot at", etc. etc.
There's a lot to think about here, and that's not even covering the hostages. Just figuring out how to clear the other rooms and making sure enough of the area is clear enough for heavy weaponry is a big enough deal before you send in SWAT and possibly murder some children in the crossfire.
In any case: my point is clear. The AR15 is the big issue. We seriously should be pushing to ban the AR15 rifle, and any other weapons of similar penetration / muzzle velocity.
I just watched the video, there are two officers in the hallway with rifles at 11:40am.
I'm not surprised that a rag-tag team of officers without radios was unaware of the firepower on their sides.
In any case, the officers who were chasing down the shooter with only pistols are heroes. The situation would have been much worse without their action.
The radio-call I highlighted there is timestamped at 11:40am. Its a real call from the scene. And that's only 5 minutes after the shooter entered (and was already after the firefights that happened at 11:38 IIRC). In any case, we're well within the quick action / quick response of the first team, who were largely fighting an uphill battle with pistols, a lack of tactical radios, and other problems.
This doesn't change the fact either, that these officers at 11:40 were not a SWAT team. They were just normal officers. Officers don't get (and shouldn't get) military style / warrior training.
And I refuse to give officers more military/warrior training. We already are dealing with an overly militarized police force. I am 100% against any discussion where your conclusion is "Police need bigger guns and need to be meaner".
Don't they though? https://www.koin.com/business/press-releases/ein-presswire/614684716/congressional-police-reform-must-include-ban-on-warrior-style-police-training-human-rights-group-says/
This is relatively recent in the great scheme of things.
I'd prefer it if we went back before warrior-cop mentality. Cops aren't soldiers. In fact, any cop that tries to be a soldier becomes worse at doing cop-jobs (and vice versa. Soldiers aren't cops, we shouldn't be putting soldiers on the frontlines of "Win the hearts and minds" of foreigners like we did in Afghanistan).
I think most people would agree with that statement.
The inaction afterwards, when the police chief arrived, is the issue.
That is fair.
You have spoken in a clear, concise, and convincing manner. Well done! You've swayed this person.
And you are of course correct in your implication we need to begin design and production of the AR16 posthaste! A gun that shoot through 3 walls is the clear solution. Well done sir!
But in all seriousness you are correct. A nation littered with mentally unstable morons and high-powered rifles is a potently and predictably tragic way to be.
It is outrageous that you are getting downvoted for such a well put together set of comments. Thankyou very much for taking the time. I'm embarrassed for the people who downvote because they know you're right and they dislike the conclusion.
https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/27/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-timeline/
Also note: I'm talking about 11:40am. These are the pre-SWAT police officers who rushed into the building almost immediately after the shooter entered the building.
SWAT doesn't arrive until 12:10pm.
So no. For the time-period between 11:40am to 12:10pm, Police are just armed with whatever they got. Normal officers don't go around with Flash Bangs, Body Armor, AR15s. Most officers just have a handgun until SWAT arrives.
Standard procedure literally nationwide is that normal officers are expected to go in with what they have. That's exactly what happened in Nashville less than a year later:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nashville_school_shooting
The body cam video is public. Officers responded with what they had. Yes, there's an officer with an AR. There are also officers clearing rooms with handguns and in plainclothes. And one of the officers that engaged the AR-wielding shooter did so with their duty handgun.
They absolutely wear the former every day and many these days have either an AR or a shotgun in the trunk of their patrol vehicle.
I agree otherwise, but the armor a cop wears on patrol is completely useless against even soft-core 5.56, you need plates
Depends on the department but police vests being carriers with ceramic plates is far from uncommon these days. I know for a fact that's the case for my local department.
Wow, that's something I've never seen before
It's part of why you're seeing many departments move from internal (under the uniform) vests to external vests.
It also helps get gear off their very heavy duty belts.
May want to read you own article before posting it....from the article at 11:35, a few minutes after the gunman entered the school....
" Three Uvalde police officers rush to the same door that the gunman used to enter, which was closed. Surveillance footage shows the officers all have pistols, and two of them have rifles. One officer has external armor, and two are wearing concealable armor."
They had armor, pistols and 2/3 had rifles.
This is a tragedy any way you slice it. There is so much gun reform that needs to happen, and police did not handle things well here. People with guns are hard situations to handle, but police handled a bad situation on a way that made it worse.
The officer who actually cornered the gunman, and put in the call for SWAT at 11:40 only had a pistol.
Which is commendable: to go into a situation knowing you are outgunned. The people with pistols in that first group 100% should be commended for going in with inferior weaponry.