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this post was submitted on 01 Apr 2024
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Her opinion on trans folks is shit, but people should not go to jail for shit opinions. Broken clock and stuff.
It's more complicated than that. Like saying there is a fire in a theatre when there is none, saying transgender are undercover perverts and a danger to society when it's not supported by evidence will get people killed. Freedom of speech is great and all but when your lie and put people in danger there should be consequences.
And just for the record, this is not a theory. People HAVE been murdered.
So who is deciding what opinions are puting people in danger. US government for example thinks that whistleblowers Manning and journalist like Assange are puting people in danger.
Have as many opinions as you want, but if you spread shit like "we should exterminate the lesser races" and "trans people are rapists" you earn a vacation at the greybar hotel for abusing your right of free speech to infringe on other people's rights.
The question is where the line is drawn and how to make sure the state is not abusing those powers to suppress opinions that it sees dangerous. A good example are cases when protecting the children is used as argument for more surveillance. This seems foelr me to go along the same lines.
Sometimes the question of "Where do we draw the line" is an important, valid question that must be considered. Sometimes, the answer to that question can also be "I don't know precisely, but this is damn well over it."
I'm not saying that hack writer is necessarily to that stage, but we absolutely should not allow "But where do you draw the line" to turn into "Everything is permitted because what about splitting hairs."
Than I will rephrase the question. Who should draw the line and do you trust people in power to draw it in a fair way? What if conservatives are holding that power against opinions they think are dangerous?
I'm not totally familiar with how the Scottish legal system works, but wouldn't the line be drawn by a jury of peers, and not necessarily the people in power?
Good question. But than again - not sure you want to be judged on sensitive topic by a group of peers, I'm not a huge fan of that concept to be honest.
[Calling for the extermination of people based on race/ethnicity/religion/gender/disability]
[Discrimination based on race/ethnicity/religion/gender/disability]
|||||||||| THE LINE ||||||||||
.
.
[Literally 1984]
Most sane countries don't have a lot trouble with this.
Calling for extermination, I would agree on. Since it's more than an opinion it's a call to action.
I'm really curious for examples.
And she won't. This is the same performative bullshit Jordan Peterson pulled in Canada.
You can weaponize an opinion, that is what is getting punished.
Where you draw the line? And who is drawing it? Will you be equally happy when conservatives will use the same tools against opinions they see as dangerous?
I think the line is being drawn at "don't sympathize with ~~terrorist groups~~ an opressive theocratic government" (publicly stating "at least the taliban know what a woman is") and "don't directly fund hate groups".
(Edited, see comment below)
Terrorist for ones are maybe freedom fighters for others - kind of sketchy line over there.
Whose freedom does the Taliban fight for? Because the people in the country of Afghanistan don't feel very free.
When you woke up today did you decide you were gonna make excuses for the Taliban right there and then or did it kinda just happen? Holy shit.
The line was drawn by Western governments that all agreed gender identity is a protected group of people. Stop trying to pick apart policies that protect people at the cost of bigots' freeze peach. Free speech is the ability to criticize your government without going to jail for it. It is not meant to protect your right to trash minorities.
And my point, governments have a history of using such laws in the end to get rid of critics. Sure this time it will be completely different. I would love to share your optimism, but you will have to allow me to remain skeptical.
Interesting that no one makes this point outside of the trans debate over whether or not they deserve equal rights against hate rhetoric.
There is no slippery slope if the law protects the weak from the strong.
Who draws it? The government?!
Slippery slope fallacy "You're okay with the government saying certain ingredients can't go in food? Where does that stop? Will you be equally happy when a government you disagree with uses the same tools to dictate everything that goes in your food?"
"You're okay with the government saying certain areas are off limits to the general public? Where do you draw the line? Will you be equally happy when a different government uses the same tools to forbid you from leaving your home?"
Is this specific step reasonable? Then it's okay. When they try to take an unreasonable step then it is appropriate to do something about it.
People shouldn't go to jail for shit opinions, I agree. That changes when their opinions become more than opinions.
That's cryptic.
Trans people have literally been murdered as a direct, traceable result of her "free speech". Several more people have been victims of harassment campaigns. She has actively engaged in Holocaust denial.
It's only cryptic because it's something that requires nuance, and to be addressed on a case by case basis. It's safe to say that we have crossed the line and then some
Hateful ideas can be dangerous things. This is why insulting people in Germany can turn into a criminal offense. They know where that goes if left unchecked.
Also, remember, not every country is the USA where breaking the law = going to jail. It can just be a fine the first few times and jail only when you show no intent on ceasing what you're doing.
JKR is being hyperbolic with this "arrest me" thing. She's playing the victim for her TERF followers.
If you're poor and black, sure.
Notice how many times Trump has flagrantly broken the law.
Lots of people just don't know what freedom is speech actually means. Speech isn't a crime, but crimes can be committed by speaking.
If you kill someone with a hammer, you aren't charged with possession of hammer - you're charged with murder. If you hire a hitman to do the killing instead, you aren't charged with "using speech."
When that theoretical person is arrested for "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" they aren't actually being arrested for their speech or their words, but for a separate crime that uses speech as a mechanism.
Speech is a marvelous thing that should be protected, but freedom of speech is not freedom from the consequences of using speech to commit other crimes.
I, for one, get angry at big gubment limiting my free spech to call people slurs at home depot just like how I get angry at big government for limiting my god given right to come and go as I please when I break into people's houses and watch them sleep.
You quoted cases that literally demonstrate my point.
It's not the word "fire" that is the crime. It's speech as a mechanism by which lawlessness or panic is incited.
Hate-speech is more nuanced, but can follow a similar pattern.
Take the sentance: "It's time to cut down the tall trees." The words themselves are fairly innocuous. But that was the trigger phrase for the Rwandan Genocide. Saying those words on the air was a call to murder all the Tutsi people. Speaking those words on the radio was not an act of free expression by the Interhamwe, but the start of a barbaric hate crime that killed nearly a million people.
She grossly misinterprets what the law is meant to achieve. It's not for somebody who dead names a trans person or calls a trans woman he or him. It's when someone Tweets out "Who will rid me of this troublesome trans person?" and then their one or more of their followers goes out and beats or murders that person.
I swear every single person arguing against this bill hasn't read it.
The gist of it is consolidating existing hate crime laws, adding sexual orientation and gender to the protected classes, repealing the law of blasphemy, and then the main one people are on about, outlawing "inciting hate" and spending several entire pages defining exactly what that means and how its still covered by freedom of expression.
As you said, you can use the slurs. You can be a shit person.
What this seems to be addressing is the fact that ANYBODY can have a platform nowadays and some of those people use their platform to harm other people, whether indirectly or not.
You should maybe read the law.
It's talking about likely consequence not after a crime has been committed. Also:
Which makes possession of inflammatory material an offence. Which is rather murky on it's own, but even more so in digital age.
Later it quite literally defines on which terms it's permissive to discuss sexual orientation or religion.
To be fair, maybe I missed something so feel free to correct me:
https://www.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/bills/s5-bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill/introduced/explanatory-notes-hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill.pdf
I was using hyperbole but the intention is the same. If you use a public platform to intentionally cause harm to another person by way of their race, nationality, sexual identity, or other specificity then you have committed a crime.
What you clearly missed was the point of the law. Hate speech isn't about saying what you want about another person, it's about using your speech to directly or indirectly harm another person or group of people.
What does the broken clock analogy have to do with Joanne being a bigot?