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[-] CoffeeJunkie@lemmy.world 146 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Scooby-Doo was cut, there's a lot of race swapping, and basically it follows Velma who is an amazing girl-boss (/s) who solves all the mysteries, and everybody else is just kind of "around". There seems to be a lot of resentment of anyone who is wealthier, more successful, or popular. Fred is a punching bag for a lot of jokes, he's just a rich white boy who doesn't really know how to do anything.

Papa Meat (Hunter Hancock of MeatCanyon) has a review. It's pretty balanced, but even that's still negative, mainly rated high as it was because he liked the art. 😅

Apparently, despite a seemingly horrendous reception by the public, it has been renewed for a second season. ¯\(°_o)/¯

[-] Ashyr@sh.itjust.works 85 points 1 year ago

I think race swapping is a non-issue, unless doing so messes with the character's backstory or story arc in a meaningful way. So I could care less about that.

[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 75 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm all for racial inclusivity but just create a new fuckin character.

If you can't be racially inclusive by making a whole new character then all you're doing is pandering/race baiting.

[-] ThunderWhiskers@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago

Why does it matter that the characters retain their original races?

[-] Rineloi@lemmy.world 91 points 1 year ago

Imagine if you just made Peter Parker black. Cool, I guess. But is it enough just to swap the skin color? IMO, it is not. You have to represent the culture as well. So you change the family dynamics, the character background, relationship dynamics etc... after all of that is it still essentially Peter Parker? If so you have succesfully race swapped a character but most of the time I think it fundementally changes the character. At that point I believe it is better to create new character like Miles Morales and call him Spider-Man. But that is just my opinion.

[-] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 31 points 1 year ago

How is that any different than any of the multiple other times they changed the "fundamentals" of peter parker?

Like when he is the sidekick of iron man who gets free robo spidey suit upgrades? Which completely changes everything important to his character?

Or when they make him a completely different age? Fundamentally changing the relationship he has with his romantic leads, with aunt may, with his villians, with his job, with his school (college? High school? Neither?), etc etc?

Short answer? Its fuckin not. Its the exact same as every other time theyve altered a key aspect of parker to shake up the story and tell a new angle with new spins and twists and turns.

It literally doesnt matter. Its just a big deal because its race this time.

[-] Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's interesting that you picked Spider-Man as the example of creating a different character being a better alternative, because there are plenty of racists out there that really hate that Miles Morales is even a thing. They would say "Why do we need a black Spider-Man? The original was fine!"

It's almost like racists are only ever going to whine about inclusivity, and "characters remaining their own race" vs "creating new characters" is a moot point because the people out there who are upset by the former are going to be upset by the latter anyway.

Imagine if the new scooby show had a cast of all white kids and a single black, well written character was added and made a pivotal role in the gang. The exact same people complaining now about race swapping would be complaining then about the new character being shoe horned in because of "woke" inclusion. Just like they do with Miles Morales.

The answer is just that we need to keep creating media with both of those scenarios and accept that shows created with a single color cast are products of their time and we can do better now. Racists aren't going to be happy either way.

Edit: Bring on the downvotes. If you consider "they're not supposed to be that race" as a valid, lone criticism of a character, you might have to ask yourself some difficult questions.

[-] Zozano@lemy.lol 4 points 1 year ago

I am someone still somewhat bothered by ethnicity-swapping (though not really for any of the reasons you described), but here's an annecdote:

When I first started engaging with the Hannibal franchise, I started with the Mads Mikelson TV series.

The character of Jack was played by Lawrence Fishburne.

Then, I watched the old movies, and shocker - Jack is a white guy.

Yet, I didn't care that Jack was black in the reboot. The only conclusion I could draw was that it didn't annoy me because I had always known Jack as black.

Now, I could be totally wrong about this, but I think a lot of people get bent out of shape because it's distracting above all else.

I couldn't care less about Jack being black or white, he's a side character in a movie I'll watch once in my life. Yet, I was thinking about race-swapping in the middle of the movie.

[-] Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

That sounds like the same kind of shock as a character in something you're used to being played by any different actor in a remake. And besides that, it's not racist to acknowledge a race swap. It can be distracting. It's racist when you make the point that it shouldn't be done because the character is supposed to be a certain color for no other reason than your preference.

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[-] kelvie@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

Idk why I feel this way, but I feel like "but I like Miles Morales" is becoming the new "I voted for Obama so I can't be racist", which had replaced "I'm not racist, but..." for a while.

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[-] VelvetStorm@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I would have just as much of a problem if they made blade white or asain or Latino and the same if they made black panther white. Changing some characters race is kind of a big deal as race is kind of an important issue. If all races were treated 100% the exact same and all had the same culture then it wouldn't be a big deal.

[-] Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

I said if your lone criticism is that they changed the race of a character, you might be racist.

Obviously, if race plays into the story, there's a valid reason to be bothered. But also obviously, if you're upset that shaggy is black despite still being the stereotypical stoner type he always has been, you might need to think about why you're upset.

The former logic should not be a sweeping ban on the latter from ever happening.

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[-] ThunderWhiskers@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

But is it enough just to swap the skin color? IMO, it is not. You have to represent the culture as well. So you change the family dynamics, the character background, relationship dynamics etc...

How is this not racist?

"Racism: noun - a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement..."

Can Peter Parker not be black and have experienced everything that white Peter did? Shit, can Peter Parker not be black and adopted by a white Aunt May and Uncle Ben?

[-] VelvetStorm@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Because black people are treated pretty differently in the usa than white people are and to deny that is pretty racist.

[-] Rineloi@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Because sadly the world doesnt work that way. Imagibe if you had a black peter parker in segregation era. Could Peter be black and still go through the exact same things? And i am not saying that because being black inherently different. Its just that black people go through different hardships due to inherent racism in america. It is not racist to say people with different backgrounds have different cultures and values.

And there are cases where this is not important, for example in the new batman film we had a black Jim Gordon and it was great. But again that is just my opinion.

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[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

Because of the principle of it. If your goal is inclusivity how is completely changing the race of an established character inclusive? It's not. It's just pandering.

If you're actually trying to be inclusive then make a new character. Anything else is a pathetic attempt that just shows how disingenuous the attempt is.

[-] magnusrufus@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

This take always seems a bit myopic as it ignores the fact that it cements in the exclusivity that already existed. Not allowed to change an established character's race? Only option is to tack on a new character to the already existing cast and that certainly doesn't seem like pandering. Of course maybe the new inclusive characters should only be in new content that isn't established and has no following.

[-] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 11 points 1 year ago

Its fascinating that you can change age, gender, class, job, good vs evil, city, power origin, family, parents, backstory, goals, romantic relationship, friends, enemies, powers, on and on and thats all fun new twists on the character to revitalize the story.

But race? Woooaaah buddy, slow down! Thats too far!

Its fuckin transparent, is what it is

[-] Kedly@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

So, yeah, theres a lot of people that dont like it for racist reasons, but what makes it stick out for the non racist reasons when the other changes might not immediately is that its the most likely category for when the intention is pandering. It CAN be done well, but it often is done at the behest of sales/pr board

[-] wildginger@lemmy.myserv.one 5 points 1 year ago

So are all the other changes I listed. All changes are done to shake up the story to bolster new sales. Thats the whole point of changing the story at all.

Pandering is a limp dick excuse for the real reason this change is "too far" of a change when literally any and every other possible change is no big deal.

Its just racist shit hiding behind a mask of dripping wet newspaper.

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[-] daltotron@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I mean I think the problem here is the like, "changing the race of an established character", right. What established character? Black superman, or whatever else, isn't superman, he's black superman. That's it, basically, that's my justification. It's not the same character text to text, even. Is it the same bilbo in every lord of the rings book? Is it the same bilbo sentence to sentence? It's not like girlboss velma and dumb rich white guy fred are the same velma and fred, they just share the same symbols. If you actually dissect the characters and compared them, then you'd find very little in common. The show doesn't even have scooby fucking doo, it's not even called "scooby doo", it's, in my mind, and I think it should be in everyone else's mind, it is tangentially related to scooby doo, at best, you know? I see it as a standalone work, and in that sense it's just kind of a mediocre show that I don't think anyone should really care about, rather than this kind of abomination on the face of scooby-doodom and this thing that we need to all be frothing about because scooby-doo has been done so dirty.

SO, all of that can be true, right, they just share symbols. But this is also true of race as a whole, the symbol of race, here, being like, whether or not somebody is black or white or asian or whatever. If you're race-swapping superman, you know, I think it's kind of more in line with the message of superman, if he's the same guy, regardless of whatever race you decide to cast him as, you know? If you don't change the backstory, if you do change the backstory, whatever, he sort of exists beyond it, as a kind of human ideal for everyone to live up to. For that to be true, superman has to be possible if you put him in basically any circumstance. So, even though superman himself is the same, have we "made a new character", even though we've changed his race, maybe changed his background, and then, in line with that, we've maybe flavored him different in terms of like, say, what music or food he likes? I dunno if we really have or we haven't. Made a new character, I mean. The character has changed, but the core remains the same, the label is the same, the symbols are the same. That's kind of the question I'm asking, where do you draw the line as to what's a "new" character, and what's not? You could just as easily draw it to be where any change in surface level characteristics, from eye color, to hair color, to skin color, results in a "new" character, even if the character, of that character, remains the same. Red shirt shaggy vs green shirt shaggy.

So I dunno, really, like, I've never got this critique of like oh no we're not being inclusive in the right way because we decided to make velma indian, instead of deciding to call the series Shmelma or whatever. What if they did that, what if her name was Shmelma? That's an extremely surface level difference between the two, but now they have a separate set of labels, so are they separate characters now, or what? I think if I'm going to critique the show, it's not really going to be on the basis of indian people not having their own shmelma, or even just their own separate scooby-doo, you know. I'm not going to condemn all indian people to forever only engaging with goobert and the ghost chasers, or whatever. If I'm going to critique the show, I'm gonna critique the show because the show itself is mediocre to bad, and has mediocre to bad writing, and cost too much money, and maybe I will critique it for, for some reason, the most popular multiracial iteration of scooby-doo has to also be the one that has the worst writing, where everyone can easily punch at it for that, and producers can also maybe try to use that as a smokescreen for putting out a mediocre show.

I dunno why I'm even talking about this shit, scooby-doo is bogus gen X bullshit. I'd rather watch like, the muppets. Nobody's ever gonna really complain about kermit being race-swapped, I'll tell you that.

[-] CoffeeJunkie@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

It doesn't necessarily matter. Did you watch South Park: Into The Panderverse or whatever it's called? I can only find this super short cut down clip of Eric Cartman's nightmare he's explaining to his psychiatrist

It misses the most important line: and finally I wanna scream, and I was like, "WHY ARE THEY REPLACING EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER WITH SOMEONE WHO IS DIVERSE??"

It's weird, it's hokey, these remakes look & feel very forced, agenda driven. I ask for more than original characters; I want actually new fucking ideas. New stories! We're not seeing very many of those lately; we're getting re-skinned versions of established characters, they just cut off their face & wear it around, and we're supposed to act like we don't notice. If we do notice, we're racist, or sexist, some -ist or -phobe. No, your work is just a lazy, contrived retell of a story that was already told pretty well. Wrapped up nice & neat with a bow on top.

Personally I'm not super invested in the whole debacle, and I simply choose to not see the new stuff & remakes. I'm an adult man, I have no kids, anyway. No dog in this fight. It's alright. If it's truly better and/or a fantastic story, it will probably bear out at the box office & I'll hear about how what an incredible movie it is.

[-] maynarkh@feddit.nl 6 points 1 year ago

For me, it's an uncanny valley thing. If the only thing they change is skin colour or gender, and it's also relevant to the plot, it's too close to the original for me to enjoy it as a new thing, but too far to be enjoyed as a new thing. It fucks with my suspense of disbelief, since I'm supposed to know stuff from other movies, but not all the things, so I'm fucked if I pretend that it's just another episode of the same thing, or it's a completely different and new thing equally.

That said, Velma is different enough that it's "past the valley" for me, it's so far from the original that it could be enjoyed as its own thing, if it didn't fall flat for other reasons.

[-] Strawberry 4 points 1 year ago

Because I haven't deconstructed the racism taught to me by my culture and upbringing and it makes me feel icky for unknown reasons!

[-] Ashyr@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago

I don't agree. If they'd just written a new character there would be grounds to complain that the new character was pointless tokenism.

[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

So maybe actually integrate that character into a new concept entirely. Make a new story where you can choose whatever race everyone is supposed to be from the start. Don't take an existing story and change the races just so you can go "See guys! I'm being inclusive! I made this character black! I'm so progressive!"

[-] HowManyNimons@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Scooby Doo doesn't have the best track record when it comes to integrating a new character.

[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

I'm honestly speaking generally not just about Scooby Doo. It just so happens that this portrayal of Scooby Doo is just pure blatant pandering.

Why did they even call it Scooby Doo? Why even attach the show to that franchise when it's so separated in it's basic concepts?

The answer is because they were trying to use the franchises name to push some stupid race pandering bullshit.

They put in all the effort to change each character to the point that they only resemble their original designs by physical appearance. They literally could have just come up with a completely different show that had nothing to do with Scooby Doo at all.

[-] HowManyNimons@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Is it "race pandering" to make a cast more diverse in order to broaden its appeal?

[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

It is when you're just taking an existing character and basically giving them black face.

It would be infinitely easier to integrate a new character entirely than to just race swap a character without changing their cultural identity.

[-] HowManyNimons@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I don't think I understand what you mean by "race pandering". Is it a kind of pandering? Pandering to whom? And how?

[-] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I call it pandering specifically because it's disingenuous. It's not a real attempt at racial inclusivity it's going "Ah fuck we're getting bitched at for not being inclusive. Fuck it this characters black now. They act exactly the same because we can't be bothered to actually put in the work to make the cultural changes, but, good enough. Fuck you"

And that's why it's pandering. They literally just change the color of their skin without giving a single fuck about cultural identities.

Edit: Removed my first paragraph because I phrased it wrong.

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[-] crypticthree@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

My only takeaway was the writing is bad.

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[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 16 points 1 year ago

It kills any nostalgia I have for the character, because race swapping very rarely means just a change in skin color

I'm fine with black characters. I prefer female characters. Ultimately, I don't care that much. Give me good writing

Make me care about them for who they are. Oh, you want to make my beloved character Pakistani? Go fuck yourself. I don't care about the actor, don't change my character.

You want to make a Haitian main character? I'm listening.

Write well, pay respect to the characters and the work. That's the only rule...I don't know why it's seemingly impossible to follow

[-] arken@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Write well, pay respect to the characters and the work. That's the only rule...I don't know why it's seemingly impossible to follow

To do that, you need these special people called writers and you need to give them time and money, and that seems like a hassle, doesn't it? Can't we just make unpaid interns brainstorm stuff and figure out what will drive engagement on social media instead?

[-] rwhitisissle@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago

follows Velma who is an amazing girl-boss who solves all the mysteries

Velma as a character was a lot of things, but she was mostly an insufferable, pathologically egotistical narcissist with hallucinatory delusions and severe mommy issues. Like, the show was horribly written, don't get me wrong, but let's not act like she was a Mary Sue.

[-] CoffeeJunkie@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

I agree with your assessment, I maybe should have included an '/s' after amazing girl boss. That's the image she has of herself, that's how she carries herself. Like an insufferable, pathologically egotistical narcissist with hallucinatory delusions and severe mommy issues would do. 🙂

I'll go ahead & add the /s, why not?

[-] stephen01king@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago

Adding the /s saves the pain not just for you, but for the readers of your comment that might struggle with reading tone in text.

[-] rwhitisissle@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I didn't pick up on the sarcasm in your description. And I'm usually pretty good at that. Not sure if that's a flaw in my reading comprehension or if your intent just didn't carry in that sentence. Maybe a bit of both.

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[-] BugleFingers@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

I believe it's because it's so universally seen as terrible that it got renewed. People couldn't believe it could be that bad, but was, in fact, that bad. So many people watched it either to rip on it or to see if it was as bad as it was made out to be and that got the show a lot of ratings on paper I bet.

Execs see numbers and conflate that with a "good show". It's our own fault really. I still haven't seen it yet though so I can't weigh in on it's quality at all

[-] blazeknave@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I mostly started watching to see what they were up in arms about. By the penultimate episode I realized it was the runrate level of "woke" and how pathetic the snowflakes are. Enjoyed the series and excited for more.

[-] Soulg@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

The fuck are you talking about lol

[-] blazeknave@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

I wasn't interested in the show until I heard the buzz as a result of people whining about how "woke" the show was. I enjoy representation in media and wondered what the problem was. I watched. I kept waiting with baited breath for the big woke reveal But it never came. Bc it's not that controversial.

[-] Krauerking@lemy.lol 6 points 1 year ago

Yeah it's not as big of a deal, and I sometimes think they use over negative hype as a form of marketing when they have nothing else and don't know how else to market it.

Which is lazy. Just like the show. I dunno, the writing just felt so bland and trying to be edgy because "look at how many people will be pissed at what I wrote" instead of actually thinking of something clever. Sorry the meh shows piss me off more than the garbage cause it feels like they know better.

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[-] 50_centavos@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

You liked the new Ghostbusters too, didn't you?

[-] blazeknave@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I did! I'm a cheap date. I like the one with the women, and the one with the kids. Life's too short to be critical. I know what's junk and what's not. I just don't care enough to be discerning when deciding the method to turn my brain off sometimes

[-] Glitchington@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Sometimes I wish I could drop my standards like that. As soon as the cash-grab shines through most things come off as too disingenuous and condescending for me to enjoy.

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[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

Fred is a punching bag for a lot of jokes, he's just a rich white boy who doesn't really know how to do anything.

Everyone is taught that racism against white people isn't real and can't happen, so they're perfect targets.

[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago

Sounds like they dragged a handful of lemmyists out of their basements to write it.

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this post was submitted on 07 Feb 2024
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