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debate club
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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Ah yes, the millions of innocent palestianians that had their homeland taken from them and are now being bombed are literally just ask guilty as the people doing the invading and bombing. Very enlightened take.
The problem with saying "both" is that there are 5 groups involved, maybe even 6.
I'd agree that "both" are bad if you mean the Israeli government and Hamas, though to different degrees at different times. I'd agree "both" are victims if you mean the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, though undoubtedly the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are the most victimized right now and in general.
Ah sorry, just made a comment outlining the parties that I am talking about lol, clearly stating it’s Hamas and the Israeli government
Do you also make this distinction between the government of nazi germany and the citizens of nazi germany?
Absolutely.
Yeah, don't you? Same with every other government. They are rarely a good representation of their people.
My take is very simple:
-are they actively targeting civilians? If yes then bad:
-are they following what is recognised as international law (namely the 1993 Oslo agreements):
Just for curiosity, are you American?
Because you literally just described America.
For that you know awfully little about the history of the area. Or you just love propaganda.
The UN, which includes the HRW, have a historic bias against Israel that is an ongoing topic. They admitted so themselves in the past and have been called again and again to justify their strong bias that shows, among other things, in the fact they find the majority of all human rights offenses in Israel.
The focus on Israel from the UN stems form the fact that the majority of it's members states are anti-democratic and their council is dominated by oil states and muslim states who see Israel as a thorn into their side.
While I wouldn't call everything from the UN as propaganda, they are definitely not a neutral source for information.
So where do you draw the line? Most - if not all - countries were created with bloodshed at some point. People in my country moved into the area around ~1200 years ago and I don't think the locals welcomed the new inhabitants with open arms. So should we move back then? What about the people who now line in the place we (at least assume) to had come from?
Yeah, but at that point you just rant how all these states should disappear without any idea what to do with the people in them.
The country Israel was founded by people who are native to the land. Perhaps read up on the history of the area, because what you are writing is factually incorrect.
There was no country before and the area was populated by multiple different groups of people. Those people wanted to found countries in the area. There is war(s) regarding where the borders of these countries should be.
That's how almost every country in the world came into place. The only difference here is that it is taking place in a time when the whole world is watching in real time and people are much more globally mobile.
I know it's much easier and comfortable to paint a black and white picture of the situation, but it is just false...
??? What does that have to do with the fact that Israel is a country founded for people who are native to the land?
Jews were killed and oppressed in the area already thousands of years ago. How is that possible if they are not natives to the land?
For example during the Levant conquest or the regular and ongoing conflicts between Arabs and Jews in the area when it was still Transjordan? These conflicts are so fucking old they are mentioned in the Koran.
It's nonsensical to try and claim Jews aren't native there.
For the same reason why people do that in every country to each other. Religion, incompatible cultural values, ideologies that go against other people, ... It's sadly something people do and have done everywhere in some way or another.
In Transjordan and the greater area between Northern Africa and Asia there were countless shifts and movements, mixing and separation of groups for all kind of reasons. But I think the separation because of different religions is probably the reason that lead to the biggest rifts, at least in that place.
I don't see how that has anything to do with whether or not a group of people is native to or had ancestry in a land.
I am not sure if you are serious.
You missed actively using civilian infrastructure for military purpose, actively using civilians as shields, targeting of civilians, and hostage taking as international laws broken by Hamas.
Yes I know, I restricted myself fairly, but outlining war crimes committed by Hamas would’ve been too long a list. Namely, not properly identifying combatente
Straight up lies as usual. Don't you get tired of making stuff up?
I don't think Hamas soldiers are usually in uniform and Hamas bases don't have signs saying "Hamas military base" on them. They couldn't exist if they were easily distinguishable from civilians. Naturally Israel abuses this natural opposition to their oppression by escalating the oppression.
They are essentially a state (as they do control Gaza with state powers) and as such, they must abide by the rules of war just like any other
Not how the Geneva Conventions work but okay