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this post was submitted on 25 Nov 2023
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Voting for a centrist neolib is the worst thing you can do for the left.
Biden has been terrible on abortion by not getting roe v wade codified his whole career, terrible on environment just approved the willow pipeline, terrible on voting rights since hes a Dem and used undemocratic super delegates to win.
And how exactly is a centrist leader worse than a far-right leader? That makes no sense. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's like having the choice between being in an abusive relationship where they always tell you they'll do better next time or being with someone who actually wants to murder you, and you choose the murderer because you're tired of being manipulated. No one would fault you for being tired of that, but to say that the alternative is preferable is utterly absurd. Lay out for me why Trump would be better than Biden.
Trump is far worse on all those issues. Do you want your life to be merely bad, or completely awful? It's a shitty choice, but it does actually matter. Sometimes it might feel like the answer is "I don't care anymore," but I feel like you're being careless with regard to the people who's lives would be unmistakably worse under Trump than under Biden. Not even just here, but in Palestine, in Ukraine, in Armenia, in Tigray, in Rojava, etc.
Because you're ensuring wealthy people control the political system by voting for them. Wealthy people win whether Trump or Biden is elected.
So atleast you admit you're in an abusive relationship, next step is to leave.
Except you often can't simply just leave an abusive relationship. You can say you're leaving, but the dems will always be there as one of only two real options; there's no escape. Just like I thought, you were just making wild, spiteful assertions without even any justification to back them up. The centrists are worse than the far-right because they're both rich? And you expect to be taken seriously with logic like that? The right is even richer and openly hates you/actively works against you.
Holy shit, you are truly a battered spouse. You can leave, vote for anyone else.
Congrats, you've voted for someone else. That person didn't win and the old people are still in charge, genius. Literally going back to Lincoln times, it's always been a dem or a rep. That's what I mean by no escape and all you've done this whole time is say "Nuh-uh!" based on nothing at all. You've said nothing substantive this whole time and have yet to support a single statement. This is nothing to do with loyalty and everything to do with strategy. So far you've proudly declared you have no real strategy and no real basis for your beliefs. At best, you've tricked yourself into thinking you've escaped the system, but you're sitting right here in the same sinking boat with all of us. You can try and bail water, or you can complain that a better boat wouldn't need to be bailed. Grab a bucket or jump out.
And your plan is to keep voting for them. you've already lost.
Yours failed.
Vote for Greens to get atleast 5% for federal funding.
Exactly.
There're those baseless assertions again. It's like you double down by making a new one every time I ask for sources, or even to merely explain your thinking. Just saying something doesn't make it true, especially not when said by you lol.
What strategy exactly? How exactly has it failed? I'd argue it's worked infinitely better than your suggestion because democrats have at least been president a bunch of times and prevented the right from having those opportunities. How many Green presidents (or even house reps) have we had again?What practical pattern or information do you get from looking at past presidents? Again, cite your sources or this is just as false and ill-conceived as everything else you've said. I can back up my statement that your strategy is worthless by pointing out that the Green Party is so fringe as to never have won a national election, or even have much awareness among voters. The Green Party would have to do at least 5 times better than it has anytime in the last several elections in order to qualify for federal funding. You're even more naive than I thought if you're banking on that. It's not gonna happen anytime soon, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It's also genuinely laughable that you'd complain about democrats being beholden to moneyed interests and then suggesting the Green Party should get all of its money from the federal government, which it would also have to agree to in order to receive that money. Do you have a single consistent thought in your head?
I'm afraid your expectations for the US electoral system is much too high. This is the US we're talking about, remember? You think they'd let us have someone actually good? Bad or abjectly terrible are your options and always will be. You can say "I refuse to participate in this matter," but I don't want to hear any complaints when it turns out the worse one gets chosen for you anyway.
I provided you an actual source for fascism. You are clearly emotionally incapable of leaving your abusive husband and that's really sad.
You are a triggered lib that can't handle the reality of your votes. You vote for genocide, and I do not. I already explained that you need to support another party to oppose that.
Voting for Democrats. It failed to oppose the right, that is very clear. We have to move to another party, very obvious.
And passed right wing economic policy. Nice job.
You keep saying that but you don't know what it mean. You have to ask a question for that.
They have won many local elections like you liberals claim to care about, and need support but you refuse to help. You instead spend time and effort opposing the obvious solution: vote for them.
Banking on them winning the president in 24? You don't even listen, it's about building a party to oppose the Democrats that are fake left.
Never said that, you're talking complete bullshit. I'm glad I triggered you this much :)
Unlike the Democrats, the Greens don't take bribes from moneyed interests like you know.
Yes, I have quite clearly said to vote for the Green party.
Voting for the Green party is the literal least you can do if you actually don't have any hope for the political system. Literally 10 minutes of your day, get over it.
Your "source" was just a link to the whole constitution of the Confederacy. You didn't actually cite any specific examples to back up your point, you just said they were comparable without elaborating. Did you even read it before linking? They may be comparable in some ways, but perhaps rather different in others. It's probably arguable, but you didn't bother, so I don't know what your thought process was. It doesn't matter what it was now, but that's what citations and sources are for. What specific parts of the constitution are you referencing? Which specific parts are similar to the 2025 Plan or fascistic political ideology and what are the parallels? You've already demonstrated for me in practical terms that you don't know when to use a source or how to cite it. Your only defense is projecting your ignorance onto me. They are not for questions at all, but for statements, of which you make many unfounded and unsupported ones. If I say Ronald McDonald is actually a Mormon and when asked for proof, I simply link the entire Book of Mormon, that wouldn't prove my point at all and you'd have no idea what I meant.
Also, the CSA was really bad, right? In listing the CSA's constitution as a kind of predecessor to the 2025 Plan, you acknowledge that this is a big deal. Shouldn't that make you way more willing to do whatever it takes to defeat the plan, even if it means sucking it up and voting for a centrist if there's no other chance?
My strategy has worked about 45% of the time in the last 100 years (8/18 times) and yours has worked exactly 0% of the time. The Greens' membership fell by about 27% between 2004-2009 and has remained mostly stagnant in terms of growth since then (that's a citation, a direct or paraphrased quote from a source I used so you'd know I didn't just pull it from nowhere. You haven't done that, so I don't know the same for your state Its just the important bit, so you don't have to read the whole thing, but you are able to go find a cited quote if you feel compelled). Your strategy is failing utterly right before our eyes and all you can do to distract from it is to point at others. My strategy actually accomplishes real harm reduction because during a significant amount of the time, less extreme policies are being passed than if they were under a republican. Dems at least pump the breaks a little bit, while the Greens aren't there to pump the breaks at all. Don't worry, though, they said that they would totally have stopped the crash singlehandedly if they were there. The DNC certainly aren't the revolutionaries I wish they were, but it's obviously better than letting the right have total free reign. The Greens have never been around to effect any legislation one way or another. Your strategy accomplishes literally nothing as opposed to at least something demonstrable. Failed idealism is still failure.
You seem to be under the impression that the Green Party would stay true to their beliefs better than the DNC, but this also would appear untrue. In the few places where the Greens have won any elections, they have to compromise with the right just as the DNC does. Here they are approving a new lignite mine (very similar to coal, used in same ways) in Germany under pressure from the right and wealthy. If they wouldn't actually be capable of being much better than the DNC because of opposition, then what's the point of working so hard to build a party and letting the right take the advantage in the meantime, only for basically the same outcome? Sounds like a whole lot of wasted chances when we could have just voted for the people already doing this.
Everything you've criticized Biden for, you haven't acknowledged that Trump would be worse on all accounts, as he's already demonstrated in his presidency. The Green Party can't offer an immediate solution for that. As only one example, Trump was setting records for so many drone strikes that he stopped publishing the numbers. In his first year, Biden reduced drone strikes by 54% from Trump's final year. 100% would be better, but you'd be a fool to reject a reduction that big. That is real harm reduction. Those are families who didn't get blown up, when they would have under Trump. Biden also made it harder for the Pentagon and CIA to launch their own drone strikes.
Here's a list of inconsistent thoughts regarding your stated reasons for advocating for the Greens; criticizing the DNC for being ineffective when the Greens have little at all to point to whatsoever; criticizing the DNC for compromises with the right when the Greens would have to make those same compromises; complaining the dems get the right elected and telling people to vote for someone unelectable which only ends up helping the right by diluting votes.
You said it, voting Green really is the least one can do lmao. It might be easier to simply bring down the whole government and start from scratch than it would be to get a Green president elected anytime in the next 20 years. It took me about as long as it takes to vote Green to write this comment and the time I spent was just as "valuable" lol.
Which is exactly what you asked for. If you read it, you would know.You didn't even link project 2025, just another scare tactic that works on triggered libs like yourself.
Also this must be your first time in an exchange since you don't know how to quote and instead use a big block of text because your clearly lazy and have no penchant for political analysis.
They are not comparable, article I.3 and IV.3 are far beyond anything in project 2025. Also this existed, unlike project 2025.
Extremely hypocritical from someone not even posting links so support your argument that voting for Democrats is good, you also just write noncoherent blocks of texts unlike me who has systematically quoted and dunked on every one of your talking points from CNN.
Once again never said that. Stop putting words in other peoples mouths you're causing yourself a lot of grief but that why liberals like yourself are so confused. I said that's an actual example in reality unlike project 2025 which is not possible with current demographics.
What is your strategy again? Just voting for Democrats to pass extreme right wing economic policy? It looks like you're simply confused about being on the left. You are not when you support right wing policy.
https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/registering-by-party-where-the-democrats-and-republicans-are-ahead/ That's 18 states where your number is irrelevant. I live in one of these states and donate and support the green party so your number does not apply to me or millions of others. Cornell West also brought in support by the thousands recently so lots of momentum.
LOL, so you admit you are a right winger after all.
Greens are building momentum so nope not failing at all unlike the Democrats. (Unless you're a multimillionaire of course)
They don't pump the brakes, you're just blind and probably too privileged to notice decline in quality of life of the poor and big uptick in eviction rates https://evictionlab.org/eviction-tracking/
Greens haven't had a chance in congress or the presidency to make an impact unlike the Dems. They've had all they chances they need to prove their intention is to increase wealth inequality, but you support that as you are right wing.
Green party US is not in any way responsible of whats happening in Germany, you're getting desperate to convince yourself voting for genocide is okay. (It's not)
Not true at all. The vast majority of over 140 elected Greens in the US are in local politics making moves you don't know or care about. https://www.gpelections.org/greens-in-office/
100% false. Trump legitimately had a better foreign policy record than Biden does right now. Biden has been a complete disaster on the world stage.
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-01-17/obamas-covert-drone-war-in-numbers-ten-times-more-strikes-than-bush you forgetting he was VP during this?
You are ignoring Biden sending hundreds of billions to Ukraine to get them killed instead of negotiating. Then he sent more weapons to Israel to kill civilian in Gaza.
You bring up drone strikes as if a reduction is reducing civilians killed while Biden kills over 14,00 civilians in Gaza? Absolutely disgusting from you.
The DNC is ineffective on purpose. Vote for the Greens to get them elected then you can complain. You have no evidence of Green party US compromising with the right at all. Dems do get the right elected by being terrible policy makers. The right is weak in the US demographically, the only thing stopping the Greens from getting to have a chance is DNC propaganda which is working well on you. The duopoly is very weak right now Gallup polling last month found that a record 49% of Americans see themselves as politically independen so is the perfect time to vote for left wing parties.
Yet you spend so much time and effort justifying your support for genocide that you can't take the time out of your day to vote for a left party. You are not part of the left.
Ok, bud.
Wasn't after midnight for me.
No, I asked for a document comparable to the 2025 plan, go back and reread it. It's not my fault you misread and gripped to that misinterpretation for too long.
I did give links. Specific ones that actually supported what I had said. Something beyond your capabilities because you've just given a bunch of irrelevant information. So what about Obama, VPs don't authorize drone strikes. The Greens haven't helped eviction rates ones bit. Your state's local Green membership doesn't mean shit.
You love to just make crazy-ass, unsupportable statements. I'll give it a shot, too. The Greens pass far-right legislation. The Greens love to secretly do poorly on purpose because their goal is to weaken the left from the inside. Article 4 of the Green Party charter is worse than any policy ever enacted by Nazi Germany. Stein wants to launch nuclear war all over the world.
Normally quotes are usually unnecessary because the person you're speaking to can remember what they themselves said. I suppose I expected too much of you.
That's exactly what I provided except it was a real document and not some theory that doesn't exist.
No, you gave a few links to irrelevant information.
Incredibly ironic.
Genocide Joe did exactly nothing to stop it. Not a word. Not a lifted finger because he is complicit in the killing of civilians.
Because you won't vote for them.
Unsubstantiated.
No examples of that, whereas Democrats make whole careers out of it. You don't want to accept that reality that your votes for them only ensure they stay wealthy and in power instead of taking a chance on the Greens.
Ironic when you vote for Joe Biden who is literally escalating tensions with nuclear powers.
Aww, you're sad you have your bullshit called out with quotes. Oh well, looks like I win this one.
Jill Stein personally participated in and helped to cover up the Srebrenica Massacre. She steals candy from children. The Green Party personally sends out envoys to cut down our rainforests and bleach our coral reefs. They're also flat-Earthers who want to ban ice cream.
LMAO. From our discussion so far, you don't even know the meaning of hypocrisy or unsubstantiated. The Green Party is far-right and passes far-right legislation. Sound familiar?
Go look back and see who actually provided links in this discussion. You sent a link about green party membership without even knowing the rules of party membership. I've done a far better job substantiating my arguments.
All you've done is make excuses for voting for genocide so you don't feel bad about killing children.
The Green Party is actually the leading cause of HIV infections in the country. Stein spits in people's food. She also hates dogs and cats. The Green Party and the National Bolshevik movement are closely linked.
If you think you've been totally reasonable this whole time, you're deluding yourself. You've just been brainlessly repeating shit like "the dems are far-right genocide encouragers." And not even elaborating. In the face of the actual far right, you sound completely nuts. It's no more true than any ridiculous nonsense off the top of my head. You're so smug you actually think you've convinced yourself that your absurd opinions are facts.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/22/israel/gaza-hostilities-take-horrific-toll-children
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2023-10-10/how-much-aid-does-the-u-s-give-to-israel
Yawn.
Biden arranged a ceasefire and prisoner release and has at least discussed limiting or putting conditions on Israeli military aid, something Trump wouldn't even consider.
I'll also just leave these here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbard%E2%80%93Satterthwaite_theorem
It's great that you think you're fighting the good fight by paving the way for "I'm for Israel First" Trump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HZs-v0PR44
His entire career in the senate he voted for funding and is responsible for the death of thousands of children, you are as well with your votes. You zionists are not part of the left.
Your plan to change the voting system: vote for people who support the current voting system because it benefits them.
My plan to change the voting system: vote for candidates that support ranked choice voting.
That's still a worthless strategy if those people can't win right now, especially given the consequences of the right taking power. You will find yourself incapable of convincing me that Trump is worse than Biden.
Can't win if you don't vote for them. Much better than your strategy of voting for genocide and then yawning at the death of thousands of children.
Your votes for Democrats are what enables Trump to exist.
They can't win because no one votes for them. They peaked 20 years ago. Honestly, I'd have more respect if you were to simply eschew electoral politics altogether. That's at least a more principled stance. The Green Party isn't our savior any more than the Democrats are. At least the Democrats have a chance in this election, though, instead of some unclear future date which may never come. There are plenty of failed parties, the vast majority of which never got anywhere.
Your votes are what enables Trump to win, rather than merely exist.
Then vote for them.
Vote for another party then.
That's retarded. I have a vote and will always vote for the largest party with a good platform.
The threat of the Green party with your vote is the only way to pressure Democrats from the left. Your vote ensure we move right, great strategy.
Republicans wouldn't be in contention if The Dems weren't freely and openly corrupt because you vote for them without question.
I do. One with far better chances of at least limiting disaster right now instead of pie-in-the-sky notions of the Green Party coming to solve all of our issues one day. It'll be too late by then.
Certainly not when compared to the alternative of gassing it to the right under Trump. If you aren't frightened by the prospect of another Trump presidency right now, you aren't paying attention.
Not that party, you're voting for genocide, just accept that. There's other parties like the PSL. Literally any left vote outside the duopoly is better than voting for right wingers like you do.
You're just naive and cant look towards the future, so in 28 you'll be saying the same argument and complaining that Dems aren't good. They don't change because you vote for them, meaning they don't have to change. It's very obvious, you are very dumb.
Cry like the baby you are. Heard the same in 2016, will hear the same in 2028, either way you must accept you are a right winger and vote for a right wing party.
Yeah, you just keep repeating the same absurdisms with no substance to help convince yourself you're above others.
You are dumb, you vote for genocide, you vote for the right, blah, blah, blah. Those are just words with nothing behind them, bud. I could say the same about you and be just as "correct" as you are. All you can do is lower yourself to name-calling because you can't think of anything intelligent to say.
You seem to be the one throwing a fit right now, so you calling me a baby is pretty rich.
It is true liberals use the same arguments to elect economically right wing democrats, you keep falling for it.
100% true if you vote for democrats who approve funding to Isreal, 3 bil a year.
Already sent you the links to prove that Isreal kills children, and how you vote for Dems that vote to approve funding billions to Isreal. You aren't mentally capable of accepting that, it's okay.
Go back and look at the book you sent because you're triggered that someone calls out your votes for right wingers.
You're here endlessly repeating the exact same talking points as seemingly your only persuasion, and yet you think that I fell for these arguments? Sounds like whatever political news "source" you use just makes the same talking points about the DNC instead of the GOP. If you claim that these arguments are necessary to "trick" voters, but you use them yourself to try to persuade me, then either you got tricked into supporting the Greens, or you're trying to trick me yourself.
Your refusal to vote tactically doesn't make you better or smarter than anyone else, if anything it indicates that your priorities are all out of order. It almost sounds like you hate Biden even more than Trump.
I got you to send a book right back lmao, all I had to do was call you too stupid to be able to. I wanted to see what I could write in about 10 minutes, the amount of time you said it would take to waste my vote. It was kinda fun.
If only we had politicians in the government right now calling for the end of Israeli aid. Oh wait...
Hypocritical of you since the only thing you have to say in response is "no this time I have to vote Dem because Trump"
I don't spend money on sending my message out, Dems do, and it clearly worked on you.
I am voting tactically. Dems have to move left to get my vote. When they move right, they get your vote.
Nope, I quickly quoted and debunked your CNN level talking points.
After consistently voting for it, and will vote for it next year as well. They care about killing little kids as much as you do.
I've been saying it should be Biden over Trump from the beginning and gave reasons for why I felt it should be so. There's no inconsistency there. You've just been calling the Dems far-right and then complaining that the Dems only get votes by calling their opponents far-right. That's hypocrisy plain as day. It doesn't matter if you spend money or not, you're still out here personally spreading the exact same message.
If you say so, bud. I provided verifiable facts with links that support my stance of why Biden is the better practical choice instead of Stein or Trump. You've just been doing whataboutisms this whole time.
Lol, that is 100% true, Dems are far right economically, and only get votes by calling their opponents far right on social issues.
What about Trump? What about facism? This time is for real!
Doubling down on the hypocrisy isn't going to help you. Here you are calling them far-right again. Which is it, is it a bad thing to scare up voters for yourselves by supposedly exaggerating the evils of your opponent, or something you find useful yourself? These are just empty words without anything to back them up, anyway. You haven't shown any of this or made any actual comparisons to the right, it's no more than an opinion. Why does the actual right hate Biden's economic policy if it's so far right?
Why not? You've certainly not provided anything that would convince me otherwise, you've just handwaved it away. It would be hard to argue that these are not unprecedented times for a long list of reasons. We've already personally witnessed Trump's appalling presidency and we've already witnessed his attempt at a coup to forcefully stay in office. It's certainly not impossible that he'd simply try again, and it's certainly not impossible it would work this time, having learned from past mistakes. This was just 3 years ago, it's still very relevant to now.
Incredibly ironic. You're the one making up hyprocritical arguments to vote for Dems. That ship has sailed, looks where its gotten us.
Lmao I'm the one stating facts here and you think you're Socrates. I've sent you examples of Dem policy being terrible, killing thousands of children, it's not a game.
For show. Biden has a long history of right wing economic policy, support of NAFTA being a good example. His recent breaking breaking of the rail strike shows how your vote gets your right wing policy now in real time. You chose this.
Trump is too incompetent to pull that off, having his dumb ass in the white house is a net positive for the world compared to having Anthony Blinken in charge of foreign policy now because Biden is asleep.
Again, I've always said it should be Biden on the basis that Biden wouldn't be as bad as Trump, despite Biden's clear flaws. That's what I'm still saying. You're the one continuously criticizing the Dems for using scare tactics to get votes, and then promptly doing exactly the same for yourself by baselessly calling the Dems "far-right" over and over.
Lmao you've done nothing of the kind, you just keep giving the same insane opinions. Something like, "Biden broke the UAW strike" is a fact and literally true, well done. That's the first fact in a good while, though. It's also just one example, so here's a counter-example. Trump took SNAP from nearly 700,000 people. Something like, "the DNC are far-right" is just an opinion and not literally true. You'd have a lot more work on your hands to be convincing in that regard when the real right is salivating at the thought of gutting programs like SNAP and Social Security right now.
More handwaving. He literally already came close to stopping the certification of his failure by force and has lots of help from his team of loyal strategists. This election really is like no other.
Never made that criticism you genuinely are making things up to feel make yourself feel better for losing this argument. I always said they are right wing economically, and referenced right wing economic policy. Once again your vote is why they don't move left, because they don't have to.
Have sent way more links and referenced actual policy like NAFTA that only a Dem like Clinton was able to pass after Republicans had been trying and failing.
I have stated several facts that you disregarded because they are facts, not because I care about convincing you.
It's not. You will use the same argument in 28 to justify your vote that drags our nation further to into privatization and neoliberalism that Biden made a career of. January 6 was not a real insurrection or else they would have guns and a plan to stay, not a bunch of idiots being let into the capital.
Who's making things up to feel better? Yeah, you accused them at least a few times of using scare tactics to gain favor, indicating that the threat isn't really there and that it's actually nothing to worry about. Then you use the same scare tactics that the DNC threatens to drag the US to the right.
You've sent 5 sources across like 28 comments, I've done over twice that. So what?
They did, among other weapons. They also had to be forced from the building before they left, they weren't leaving on their own. They also weren't just let in, there is footage everyone has seen of lines of riot cops fighting to prevent entry to the building itself.
Those are different arguments, and it's okay you can't comprehend that. Not everyone is cut out for this kind of analysis.
You are since you have not yet accepted that you vote is directly linked to genocide.
Not at all the same. When have I said that Dems are far right on social issues? Once again you're making things up to feel better about clearly being outclassed in this discussion since you are not able do independent research about the effects of your votes.
Not true, and your links have been irrelevant like how you didn't even know how party membership works and tried to use that to say the Green party is in decline when it is in a current surge of momentum from Cornell West considering running for the nomination.
LOL you don't even read the articles you post, there are literally no picture of weapons, just text.
That's literally all wrong, but ok, bud.
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/vote-biden-genocide-gaza
Whatever, that's an opinion piece.
https://time.com/6340511/biden-israel-history/
No wonder your user name is depres mode you must be severely depressed to write such a book.
Im looking forward to voting for Jill Stein even more now.
Will respond to your pathetic nonsense tomorrow
That's fine, I knew you wouldn't have the attention span to read it, seeing as you can't muster a thought longer than an elementary-level sentence. Elaboration is a good thing. You're still wrong and you still don't know what a citation is. The last sentence of my comment sums it all up pretty well, anyway.
Nope, your terminally online ass responded with this jumbled block of text past midnight.