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Trump’s Most Unhinged Plans for His Second Term
(nymag.com)
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this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
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politics
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They're called "examples".
No, it doesn't. Because "or" and "any" and "office" all have their own meanings, as do all the other words you completely ignored to claim there's any ambiguity. THAT is why I'm annoyed with you, because you have been obstinately declaring ambiguity and a lack of an answer when it's been right there in your face, in written words, the whole time.
Again, their answer was the same as mine, so why was the text not clear enough for you? Remember, the framers themselves said it's clear as day by simply pointing out what the text says. I want to know why you didn't take that from what's written. Not being a dick now, I actually want to understand what is ambiguous about "or any other office, civil or military".
Lol you don't honestly think this is the case do you? Why not give examples in every amendment? But this is certainly not how it's worded. You're just trying hand wave away this peculiarity. Why not just admit it's curious and raises questions?
At no point was your position unclear; at no point did I not understand what you were arguing. The issue is that they decided to put in "examples" (lol) but not include the POTUS, and I thought that left the door open to interpret as not including the POTUS. One of them clarifying that it does still include the POTUS is very different than you simply claiming it does. The only reason this would be hard to understand is, well, if you lack reading comprehension or cant think outside of black and white.
No, the reason this is hard to understand is that the text is perfectly clear, and you STILL won't say why "OR ANY OFFICE" might not clearly cover offices not explicitly listed. Because that is what those words mean and I think you should be concerned that you can't answer that question. I would also encourage you to research the concept of "or", and of incomplete lists, as they have been around for millennia and you really ought to get caught up.
Put another way: what I want to know is why you want to focus so hard on a sentence fragment being ambiguous, when the very next words of the sentence make the meaning perfectly clear (and make no mistake, the meaning is perfectly clear to anyone who can read English).
This is how this is going, from my point of view: "Why is the President not listed" "See 'any office' right after that" "But why are the other offices listed" "Because 'any office' covers all of them, even ones that didn't exist back then" "But the President isn't listed and that creates ambiguity" "No it doesn't, because of the 'any office' text" "But it doesn't list every office" "Right. See 'any office'" "... But it's ambiguous and you're not answering my question"
Now you try.
Holy shit this has been my entire point. The more you go, the more obvious you make it that it's you who lacks reading comprehension. To be clear, once again, it's because they list high importance positions, and then throw a catch all in at the end that would also cover all of those other positions. Why list those at all? Why not list the most important position? The best explanation you've come up with is "they're examples" which is a joke because it's clearly not worded in a way that would make one believe they are just examples.
Because this is why a judge, one who is an expert in law, ruled that way and I find her conclusion to be reasonable, without the clarification from a framer of whether this is supposed to cover the POTUS. It's the crux of the argument. The issue is that you just want to handwave this away because it's inconvenient for what you (and I, btw) want to be true. You sound like all the people I've debated with who claim "a well regulated militia" was just thrown in for funsies and shouldn't be considered.
The fact that in none of these you include "but senator is" just leads me to believe you aren't debating in good faith. Either that or your reading comprehension is even worse than I originally thought.
I'm not handwaving a damn thing. "Why include those at all?" is barely even a curiosity, and absolutely not a reason to rule that the catch-all means nothing just because there's a partial list before it, nor to defend such a ruling as reasonable. The language is clear as crystal, and there are no two ways about that, because it says what it says. You even called it a catch-all, so you know damn well what those words mean, and implicitly agreed that it is clear from the language alone all those who Section 3 applies to.
You only think that because you lost sight of the forest for the trees. If you understand my position, then you understand why that list being incomplete is irrelevant to the question at hand.
Edit: Also, I'd expect a judge "who is an expert in law" would know about that bloody paper I linked wherein the framers explicitly stated why they listed only some positions and not every position in Federal government. Speaking of which, a point I raised before was that they couldn't have listed every position that would ever exist. By your logic, it's "ambiguous" as to whether we can have a traitor serve as a four-star General in the Space Force, just because nobody ever explicitly named that position in the text of Section 3. If arguing that the framers were deficient in their writing because they couldn't see the future to explicitly name every government position that will ever exist doesn't highlight how pants-on-head your point has been this whole time, I don't know what will.
Lol you called it "examples" despite it not at all reading like examples, and you're just ignoring it again now.
What else would you call an incomplete list of things, that represents some entries from a complete list of things? And you say I'm the one arguing in bad faith.
If you had a point, it would have been made by now. If you're genuine, I hope you consider the dialectical spanking you've been given today and use it as inspiration to be better. I believe in you, champ.
This is what I'm trying to figure out. You're basically saying there was no point in them listing those out specifically, it was just a weird set of examples that doesn't even read as a list of examples, in a document that doesn't otherwise list examples. Maybe you're right, but you're making a terrible case for it. Really you're just handwaving it away because considering it would make maintaining your position more difficult.
And considering you keep misrepresenting my position, despite me explicitly laying it out for you, yes you are the one arguing in bad faith. You and I both know it, and we're likely the only two down this far, so I'm not sure why you're even bothering to deny it.