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This is fine.
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 21 Nov 2023
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You know that this phrase means the end of illegal occupation, right?
It’s both. If it didn’t have a plausible legitimate use, it wouldn’t work as a dog whistle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/09/us/politics/river-to-the-sea-israel-gaza-palestinians.html
Everybody has bad actors, and they serve to complicate what oughtn’t be complicated, including language.
It means different things to different people. There are definitely a few that use it with a genocidal intent. But as you said that he's not it's de facto or historical meaning. It has a much longer history than the last few months. Most people complaining about it only just learned of it. And have no idea about its history or what it actually tends to mean.
Hamas didn't exist until 20 years after the illegal occupation started.
and the HAMAS is 36 years old. By the way when my country was occupied, the embryos of what would become our main resistance didn't wait 20 years to begin resisting... more like 20 minutes. So to me that sound like a serious blow to the "HAMAS is Palestinian Resistance"
Way to misconstrue what I said, but ok.
Don't mind them. They probably felt uncomfortable hearing "Black Lives Matter" too. Saying it's a call for genocide for white people.
I saw a sign from a protest says, "I thought you said all lives matter."
Is Kibbutz Be’eri on occupied land?
Is Tel Aviv on occupied land?
Is Haifa on occupied land?
Of course.
In other words, “Death to Israel!!!”
Edit: in before “No no. You have to understand that ‘Death to Israel’ is an aspirational call for peace”
So we're Indians wanting to get rid of the British Raj all genocidal maniacs?
Not a great comparison as Brits have Britain to live in already (I'm British, if it matters).
If you displaced the Brits from India back in the day, they could return to Britain.
If you displace the Jews from Israel now, where could they go?
All the Jewish people in Israel came from other countries though and a very large percentage of the population of Israel maintain dual citizenship. So they can return to the country they are a citizen of, or return to the country there parents or grandparents came from.
Yes, they weren't being treated well in those countries (to put it lightly) but that doesn't make them entitled to someone else's land. He'll the reason most western countries supported creating Israel is because they wanted their Jewish populations to leave.
It would be like unilaterally decided were going to take part of balkans and give it to the Romani people so they have their own country. They are persecuted and don't have a country of their own, so why not?
The vast majority of Israel's Jewish population is native-born at this point. They have no connection to those countries. They likely don't even speak the language. I do not see how that would be a good solution.
There is no easy solution to this where everyone gets what they want and is happy.
There is only least bad solutions.
And and I think dismantling Israel is that least bad solution. They can go to other countries or become part of Palestine. But either way as the colonising population they have the moral duty to bare that burden.
What if the countries their ancestors came from don't want to take them and the Palestinians don't want them there either? I don't think it is a solution.
My solution would be put the whole area under UN control until something equitable can be worked out that will make people at least satisfied. They won't be happy, but they could be satisfied if they were forced to have negotiations.
There's a lot of places where Jews can already live safely
The hilarious part is upper middle class Jews from like New York running over to colonize Palestine to be "safer"
I'm not sure why you went straight for "what about", I'm saying the comparison is bad and that's it.
You understand you're literally just arguing semantics right?
And even then its still a good comparison because there was never a country of India until after the British took over either.
well yes but actually no. Arab states in palestine, yes. However they've been under Turkish occupation for most of their modern history
ah yes because being under the rule of a foreign empire doesn't imply occupation by said empire... I think you have a lot to teach to the entire english speaking world
The people can stay. The borders and government must be dissolved.
Why?
Why is apartheid bad?
I think Jews and Palestinians both need a place where they can feel safe from anyone trying to kill them off since it's something one group has already been through and the other group is going through right now and both are at risk from it happening again in the future. This means they either need to give one group a new homeland, which, at this point, would be ethnic cleansing of either group, or find a way for them to share one homeland safely. No ethnic cleansing should be allowed and future ethnic cleansing should be prevented to the best of the international community's ability.
Personally, I would prefer UN administration of the region until something equitable for both Jews and Palestinians can be resolved.
Yes and what guarantees for the Israeli. Various palestinian factions have been commiting massacre and pogroms since the 1930's where they had a german-sized nazi movement.
The government is what guaranty people's right and safety.
This is exactly why the Palestinian state exist and Arafat refused to integrate into Israel
And the people that stay will be slaughtered.
That's a leap. It means an end to the illegal occupation, apartheid, and Zionism. Give the land back to the indigenous people. I've seen talks of the establishment of a secular state where all can be free, which is the ideal here. Not the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians
Right…
You just called for the destruction of Israel. You just said Tel Aviv, which was built on land purchased from the Bedouin, is on occupied land.
You just said that Be’eri is on occupied land. Since it’s on occupied land, then Hamas’ murder of 100 people is justified in your mind.
Palestinian policemen massacred non-Zionist Jews in Hebron in 1929. The government of Gaza massacred left-wing Jews in Be’eri in 2023. And you sit here and talk binational bullshit fantasies.
From the river to the sea, you want it to be Judenfrei.
If not destroyed, at the very least reconstituted and subject to Hague tribunals
What does “reconstituted” mean?
That's easy to say, but means nothing until you define who the "indigenous people" are, which is an extremely fraught topic in this particular case.
People indigenous to the land. It's fairly simple. White European ashkanazi Jews whose descendants lived there 2000 years ago aren't indigenous. They're white, white people aren't from the Middle East, Arabs are.
Oh my sweet, sweet summer child. That's a statement both sides agree on, but not in the way you think
Jews are the indigenous people, Muslim Arabs came later.
What the heck @guriinii, stop kicking them out of Shiraz and Baghdad!
Yes?
The Baha'i will not surrender Haifa. That's our Holy City since you kicked us out of Shiraz and Baghdad. We've been there since the Arabs put us there in 1890.
Edit: sorry Lemmy replied to the wrong comment.