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this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2023
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Freedom of speech should not extend to foreign adversaries. Give me the ability to geoblock social media just like I can with my router at home. Accurately label any domestic sources that are relaying this disinformation as well so I can block them too.
Hot take incoming...
Actually, I would argue the opposite.
Now that we have global access to each other, we should be speaking to each other, and finding common ground. We all share the same planet.
And when speaking to adversaries, we should consider what they're saying for truthfulness or if it's just an attack, before deciding to ignore/block it or not.
A foreign adversary isn't a uninformed troll engaging in debate. Their job is to attack a target. Supporting their right to attack is like supporting telemarketer scammers right to robocall everyone. You aren't going to debate them out of scamming. They have a job to do.
How do you know? It could be his/her day off.
A "foreign adversary" has many jobs, not all of them is to shape a narrative on the Internet.
Having said that, my use of the term was more generic in nature, as a country that has opposing motives/goals than we do (Iran, etc.).
We're dancing close enough to the Armageddon line at this point as it is, its ok to pull back a bit and try peaceful means to resolve issues, instead of just 'pushing the button'. Generally speaking, the more we talk, the less we fight.
Yes, but it makes a difference when that conversation is effectively controlled by whoever has the most bots and/or money. Especially when they're using tactics like spam and just drowning out the conversation.
I mean, you've seen Hexbear respond to things.
Very true, but that's not the point being discussed, this is ...
Using misinformation on the Internet is a generic response to shape a false narrative, and not to attack a specific target (though that can be a side effect result).
And also, an adversary will use the Internet as you described, where the OP was (effectively) saying that they don't use comments on forums on the Internet at all, but instead do physical attacks only.
You are ignoring the premise that these are identified foreign adversaries who are not looking for debate. There is no one to debate because the harassment if from fake accounts.
The targets are being doxed, dogpiled, and "told to kill themselves".
You are making an assumption (the italicized part).
It's not an assumption. It is the basis of the article! Or do you actually support death threats?
Ah damn it! You've discovered my nefarious plan! Curses!
/s
The article was about an identified Chinese government department that was sending death threats to targeted individuals.
But you keep saying "let them talk."
I was replying to comments (including your own), and not the article specifically.
The original comment and I said "foreign adversaries" in reference to the article and I specifically distinguished them from normal uniformed trolls that you could debate. Yet you continued to defend the foreign adversaries. I have to assume you didn't read the article about what the foreign adversaries were actually doing.
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying, if you think that.
All I'm stating is that foreign adversaries have multiple roles and multiple jobs they do, not just the one thing you are mentioning.
That's the whole point of my conversation with you, the point out that a foreign adversary can do more than just one single thing.
If a foreign adversary is engaging in normal debate then they are not a foreign adversary. You replied to someone concerned about bots sending death threats with "we should talk to them."
You have been continuously dishonest by attempting to reframe a foreign adversary issuing death threats from thousands of bot controlled alt accounts to a regular person. Yes you can talk to a regular person. That's not the foreign adversary that you replied to originally. Your semantic games to attempt to wiggle out of supporting death threats are ridiculous.
So if you happened to deal with the person outside of their job as a foreign adversary and they were using their political power to issue death threats, is free debate still ok? Is it fine for someone in power to call on their followers to attack you because free speech should never be impinged?
I was speaking generally about foreign adversaries, and not the ones in the article (that I did read). Its not something we should really be arguing over, or for you to be so nitpicky over. Its not worth either of our time to do so.
The ORIGINAL comment that I replied to ...
And your first reply to my reply to the original comment ...
You didn't mention specific foreign adversaries just from the article. You used the generic terminology for all foreign adversaries.
My only point was that not all foreign adversaries, regardless if they were mentioned in the article or not, act in one single way, that they have multiple motives/actions. Thats all. No mention was made by me of specific foreign adversaries. You assumed as much, incorrectly, but I did not refer to them. I spoke generally.
I used the term Foreign Adversaries specifically because that's what the article called the attackers. This is a thread about the article. You replied to a comment about the article and didn't distinguish in your reply that you weren't talking about the article. Only after I pointed out that you are supporting death threats, you are back tracking. But oddly your replies didn't condemn the death threats but only made skewed comments like "You’ve discovered my nefarious plan! Curses!"
Your premise of "Let them talk." is flawed. Talk can incite violence.
I think if anyone looks at the conversation they can see that your assumption was incorrect.
There's no obligation to reply to a comment in relation to the article versus the comment directly itself. The article is a jumping off point, and not a hard-coded blueprint that everyone has to stick to.
Every Lemmy post about an article doesn't stay just about the article, but branches out into a wider discussion about the subject that the article covers, and there's no obligation for comments to stay specific to just the article, versus the subject.
You are incorrect in your assumption.
When you use phrases from an article but don't say you mean something completely different, it's your fault that you are misunderstood.
You claim that a government agent sending death threats (30 agents were responsible for 10,000 alt accounts used for harassment and death threats) would honestly engage in debate. Given how few actual people were behind the harassment, debate was impossible because the attackers were using automated tools to manage 10,000 accounts.
And continued silence from you on actually condemning death threats.
If you're going to keep moving the goal post this much you might as well just build a new stadium.
The issue being argued was that you misassumed my comment was specific to the article, when it was specific to a comment.
It's not my responsibility to protect you from yourself, but instead for you to have a reading ability before replying to a comment.
The irony is that it was a simple enough mistake, not worthy of the argument we've been having since.
You were the one that took phrases that the article and op used and changed their meaning without informing anyone of what was going on your mind.
Don't get huffy that people around you aren't mind readers.
No, I did not. You assumed I was talking about certain individuals, I was talking about the general profession. If I was speaking specifically about those in the article I would have stated so explicitly, which is normally how language works.
No one is ever explicit when they're talking generally, only when they're talking about a specific part of it.
It's really simple, and something that every human being (including myself) on this planet has done at one point or another. Just say "Sorry, I assumed incorrectly,", and be done with it.
As I have mentioned before,...
But then you admit you did:
The assumption was made because the article and op used the phrase to mean one thing but in your mind, without telling anyone, it meant something else.
You're being intellectually dishonest, and using a cheap debate tactic of deflection. You're misrepresenting what I said.
I was responding to a comment, and not the article. I was not contradicting the article, I was not referring to the article. You made the mistake of assuming I was, when I did not.
You refuse to see that you expect users to read you mind such that words mean only what you want them to mean.
This is the same problem with being tolerant with intolerants. While ideologically might make sense, it's a losing battle that favors bad faith actors.
Not the same problem at all. Intolerance is straight-up hate with no logical basis and it calls for harmful actions against groups of people. Meanwhile there is a lot of room for interpretation and disagreement in global politics. What we're seeing here is a fight between global powers to control the narrative, and it's not just China doing it either.
That's an assumption. You "trust but verify" (as a famous former president said), and if they're not acting in good faith, then you move on from talking to other actions.
Geoblocking only works when they don't VPN, Tor, or hack and remotely control grandma's domestic computer, including her FB account.
Keep trying, though. We need to figure something out.
In 2016 a friend was attacking another of my friends on FB, and the 'attacker' had no idea it was happening.
Presumably it was GRU at work, based on the nature of the attack.
So that's at least one vector that FB and NSA, etc., need to address for starters.
Tell Elon that. Or sign up for CounterSocial, they have a few countries blocked.