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this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2023
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A lot, likely most, of the trolling we seem to take as a necesserary consquence of social media seems to be influence operations from Russia and China (as the largest players, of course there are others).
That's what strikes people the most when they go from X to Mastodon. 90% less followers, but more actual engagement and practically none of the harassment.
It seems most people simply don't troll.
But where's the proof that China is literally paying them to troll? Why can't this just be organic trolling from Chinese people and pro-China sympathizers that legitimately just hate the West?
I mean if I thought I could harass politicians and get away with it...
Americans are taught to hate communism from early age, any statement that say "communism is bad" is true, even comming from their government that knownly financed dictatorships and even invades countries in the name of anti-communism. Just remember they elected a president over this, you will not be able to talk pondering about this with an average murica.
If you say anything you are a tankie.
Bring out the whataboutism. I've never understood the need for communists to stan for horrible countries anymore than I understand the need for moderates or right wingers to stan for the USA. The USA and China both have horrendous governments, their mode of governments are kind of irrelevant to the fact that they practice massive disinformation, genocide, war, colonialism, ethnocentrism, and concentrate tremendous power at the top. A government loosely tying itself to left wing policy, in name only, doesn't automatically make it good.
You only use moral critics and then call me for whataboutism. Let's leave the effect words aside and talk about the data?
No, you don't understand, cause you are putting China and US as they are similar, US have 800 military bases around the world, US invaded 2 countries and financed at least 3 coups only in this century, you cannot take it and say lightly "both are bad bru".
What is an horrible country? This is what I'm pointing, just bad adjectives without any explanations, for a single time you can think about the possibility you are burried by cold war propaganda? Or you deny McCarthyism? China is clearly a better place with the communist party, you have a lot of room for critics but the numbers are astounding. For sure China do things I hate and criticize but I can't understand the need for muricas to call a country that made the biggest leap in combat poverty in the history of humanity, an "horrible country" and refuse to elaborate. Is horrible for who and where?
Here pls enlight me, I'm totally open to this, but there is any source for what you are saying that does not come from a think tank?
Genocide: how do you have genocide without propaganda? There is any piece of propaganda against any minority in China? You have social media there, how nobody ever got a public speech against a minority in China? I never saw even a Trump/Bolsonaro/Órban/Le Pen like public speech against any minority. If you have, pls link it to me.
War: where is war and what war? After the revolution which war China entered? The last war China participated was the Vietnam war when they defended the already recognized Vietnam government (that even received help from US during the war against Japan) against and US trying to bring Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia back to the French domain. Before it was just civil wars.
Here I will get a comparision, and it is not whataboutism, I have to compare to something that is not just an idealization of myself:
bases around the globe
China have 4 militar bases around the world;
Germany have 4 bases around the world;
Turkey have 10 bases around the world;
UK have 32 bases around the world;
Canada have 4 bases around the world;
If there is countries looking to war, for me seems that China is least one of them. The only thing I remember that is shit right now is the Indonesia x China situation, but is far away of escalation.
How much it is? I'm not saying that China is a beautiful place, but there is actual voting systems with a enourmous rotation of ppl in the congress and officially the general secretary have less power than a president in presidentialism and similar to a a Prime Minister.
Also about power, 1,095 strikes recorded in 2021, for me strikes are a great indicator that workers have some kind of power and can demand better conditions.
Answering your question, do you never thought the possibility that these "horrible countries" were not that horrible places and that you (specially if you are on US) have a completely distorted vision of these countries because you are historically in war with them? And again, China is not a perfect place, but no country is, countries don't come from nothing. But if you still try to label things without any deeper insight, like bad, good, genocide, war, you will never understand, for sure.
Charges aren't convictions.
Cognitive domain, it's not a new concept.
It's speculation, with circumstantial evidence at best.
Occums razor, evidence isn't necessary.
That doesn't mean what you think it means.
Occam's razor, this is probably a coordinated troll group. Jumping from that to "and so this is an operation by the Chinese government" requires evidence, though, because Occam's razor says this is a group of trolls who just do this for fun or as vigilantes.
A coordinated trolling campaign from channers or goons would look basically the same, just with different targets.
Naw man, everyone who can exercise influence by the methods we are broadly referencing is already doing it.
It is harder to explain why the powerful Chineese wouldn't be doing it when every other relevant group is.
I don't think there's proof everyone is using paid agents to systematically troll and harass enemies of the state. This is a pretty specific thing.
Surveillance is one thing. This is different.
I'd believe it if I saw proof, but I don't see proof. I see circumstantial evidence and speculation.
Saying "troll and harass" doesn't really do the subject justice. I would rather describe it with the words "manipulate and influence."
When do you think the manipulation started? It's certainly not a new concept. It's inherently human.
It has just evolved in modern times to use the Internet as a tool, but it's always been happening.
Occams razor most certainly applies here. It doesn't just apply to foreign governments but also all the nefarious factions around the world.
The evidence is all around you, psyops everywhere.
I suppose it's not much different than the FBI telling MLK to kill himself, if you put it like that. I still think the evidence is lacking, though. This could still definitely be vigilantism on behalf of some enthusiastic Chinese posters.
I remember the early days of social media. Once upon a time, Livejournal was THE social media site. A lot of fandom stuff took place on there.
Then it got sold to Russia, and there'd be days when LJ was weirdly down and unstable (this was before Cloudflare and DDoS protection) for some reason--and I'd learn there was some political strife going on on the Russian-speaking side, because their politicians and thinkers and radicals had made it their online home (long before any politicians in the USA used social media). But I was too young at the time to understand what was going on. All I knew what my fandom space where I talked about books and stuff was having outages due to stuff going on on the Russian-speaking side.
Basically, Russia was using the platform to perfect manipulating social media on its own citizens. Then it turned around and used it on the English-speaking and western world--and other nations have been watching very keenly, and seeing how effective it's been. That China would do it too is basically like, "Duh, of course they would. It WORKS."