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this post was submitted on 12 Nov 2023
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This is completely stupid. If Hamas are hiding in hospitals then surely there's a better fucking way to target them than trying to blow the whole fucking place up. One way would be to send a strike team, after all Israel and Mossad are "famous" for hunting terrorists down after the Munich bombing at the Olympics. Yet the same country can only now resort to cutting off infrastructure and bombing refugee camps, ambulances, schools and hospitals plus which is killing aid workers and drs.
That would only make sense if the goal wasn't revenge and ethnic cleansing.
I don’t know how strike teams work and such but I doubt it’s as easy as in Call of Duty.
Lol you’re getting downvoted for being right.
People serving in Iraq acting like they served in WWII. Mother fuckers killed and tortured civilians, destroyed towns and claimed “victory” against people who were defending their homelands.
We invaded and occupied a sovereign nation in the name of “WMDs” which we found none of and acting like we did god’s work over here. All they did was help create more animosity against Americans. Good fucking job.
You mean the government that committed multiple atrocities against their own people? The government which regularly tortured and executed prisoners of war? The government whose leader's son was a psychopath who raped a different woman every day, and had a penchant for brides on their wedding night?
USA did the people of Iraq a favour by getting rid of Saddam and the Baath party, WMDs or not.
Oh? Is that right? I see a government (Israel) slaughtering 10k civilians right now. Where is that sense of moral duty? Why don’t we go in there and send a peace keeping force?
We did Iraqis a favor by slaughtering 30k of their civilians did we? How many did Saddam kill before us? Didn’t we take out OBL by not slaughtering people in Pakistan?
Foh.
what the actual fuck. I'm gonna report you here, to insult every decorated veteran as a war criminal is wrong on so many levels.
Yeah, for starters your own people are going to get killed.
It would probably have fewer casualties on the enemy side however since some of them might actually live. However, Israel's goal is not to allow Hamas members to survive.
Exactly! It surely can't be harder to fight 30,000 embedded terrorists than 8 scattered terrorists in hiding.
I think Israel should give them supplies to continue operation until they can be evacuated. And also Israel should give them notice of evacuation weeks in advance so they can prepare. And Israel should be expected to provide alternate medical care.
This is not as easy as you think. You have to get your team to the target, through terrorists hiding among civilians, through IDE’s that are hidden along the way, through civilians that do not like you. And if you miraculously survive this march without heavy casualties the Hamas are already gone and hide somewhere else…not to forget the civilian casualties that would happen on the way…
jUst sEnd A sTriKe tEam lmao
Rather just bomb the fucking place and move on.
Should've added an /s eh
Not if you look at it from Israel's point of view. The bombing results in less casualites on their side and still hurts the Hamas. I know this sounds cruel and I strongly condemn the civilian casualites, but from a tactical perspective it absolute makes sense and Israel has not that many options, Hamas made it very clear that they will continue so they have to fight them.
No it doesn't make fuckin sense unless you don't understand why hamas exists. Let's assume that Palestinians aren't people, and it's morally acceptable to kill dozens of them to get one or two Hamas guys. Now, you have a ton of family members of those dead people who are extremely angry at Israel for killing their family and friends. Do you think those people just sit down and die quietly? No, quite a few of them join a terrorist organization to fight back. So now, by bombing that hospital, you've created more terrorists than you've killed.
I'm amazed people are so stupid they still haven't realized if you kill one innocent guy you just created 3 freedom fighters.
So bombing hospitals is the right answer? Really Israel needs to just fucking ceasefire.
From a tactical perspective it is. A ceasefire would help the civilians but also would benefit the Hamas...it's a double edged sword.
From a tactical perspective it's a goddamn war crime. When should they stop, then? When no native Palestinian remains, so they can swoop in and take all of Gaza like they've been trying to do for the last 70 years? Hamas is a response to decades of ethnic cleansing and Israel is using it as an excuse to further their conquest
Edit: this isn't necessarily directed at OP. It's more of an open ended question for those in support of the bombings
It's also a war crime to use civilians as meat shields or to use hospitals or other cilvilian buildings as base of operations or storage for military equipment. Please don't act as Hamas is giving real choices to Israel. They could either act or give the Hamas and other organisations an advantage and they all have their fair share of atrocities but I mostly see the war crime label on the actions of Israel in social media and I find this kind of strange.
Hamas is a bunch of rabid dogs that hate jews, just like all the other terrorist factions around them, who want to kill everyone that dont give a fuck about their great Allah. Of course Israel has their fair share in atrocities and is also fueling this conflict, but don't fool yourself in thinking that those terrorist groups would stop after they got rid of Israel. Netanyahu and his political party need to go if we ever want peace in the middle east, but the same goes for Hamas and all the other religious dipshits.
And just to set this in perspective, the same is happening in Russia right now. There will be a whole generation with a furious hatred for the west and our lifestyle because of the propaganda and the lies of their leader. And I'm asking you, wouldn't it be justified for the west to defend itself against that?
I really don't think that someone is supporting the bombing of civilians or the amount of casualties. But Hamas or the other groups will continue. Israel gould go back to the borders of 1948 and there would be still missle attacks each day against them. From the perspective of these groups Israel has no right to exist and now please tell me how do you defend yourself against such primal agression? How do you avoid civilian casualites if the enemy is hiding among them? How do you save the life of your troops and keep your defense up in such a scenario? The cruel and sad answer to that is what we all witness every day.
And I do not support it, I really condemn it, but I also have no idea how it could be dealt with in any other way that would not benefit the Hamas in the end.
Why do you blame Israel for the actions of their enemies?
Everyone is blaming Israel for the actions of Israel. I honestly have no idea how you could get this from the comment.
If you feel like you need to defend Israel in this situation, maybe ask yourself why that is. Is it really so difficult to call this obvious war crime out? You can still support them overall but acknowledge their (many) failings. At this point just saying "but Hamas!" in response to every valid criticism looks absolutely pathetic.
At what point do you think Hamas should take responsibility for hiding behind civilian infrastructure, including digging tunnels under a freaking hospital?
Obviously they should take responsibility. Should Israel take responsibility for it's crimes too?
So why blame Israel for something Hamas is doing? Why aren't you ranting about them?
Answer the question
They did. Israel is firing at Hamas, not hospitals. Full stop.
To take out Hamas any other way would be worse for civilians because it would involve a longer operation including a cordon. Look at 2017 in Mosul if you don't believe me.
Weird thing to say. How do you explain this?
[...]
And there are 32 patients dead in the past three days because of Israel's blockade of supplies alone. Not to mention the constant bombing.
I find it really weird that people come into the comments to demand people denounce Hamas, but then refuse to acknowledge Israel's crimes under any circumstances. Is it so hard to call out crimes in both sides?
Honestly if someone can't acknowledge the problems with what Israel is doing here I don't think there's anything to be gained from debating this with them
Edit: I thought you were the original commenter before, sorry, but the point still stands
To take out Hamas using any other approach than the way Israel is currently doing it would be much worse for civilians. I'm not the original commentator but don't get me wrong, you do not understand war. You do not understand war crimes. You do not understand the difference between them.
For most people, I think that the problem isn’t with Hamas being held responsible. The problem is that people bearing the brunt of Hamas’ and Israeli actions aren’t members of Hamas - they’remedical personnel and patients and civilians in general.
Yeah, because they're being used as human shields.
Of course they are. Why else would you set up in a hospital? Doing so (turning hospital into a command post or using a marked ambulance to transport fighters or weapons) is against international law. If it is true that Hamas is doing that in these exact examples and not merely as a general practice), those buildings and vehicles are legal military targets. I was in the business and I’m familiar with all of the arguments and justifications.
What it comes down to, legally, is whether the response was proportional to the threat and whether every attempt was made to restrict damage to civilian infrastructure and persons. Just as a hypothetical example, using an F-16 to drop two bombs on a populated hospital because there’s a couple of snipers on the 6th floor would be a disproportionate response. Using a rocket propelled grenade against that window/room is more proportional, even if there were patients in the same room. Killing them with counter-sniper fire so as to save those patients but still eliminate the threat is the most proportional.
The other dimension, though, is the moral culpability (if you believe in free will) or at least the functional responsibility (if you do not) of designing and launching an operation in which massive amounts of civilian casualties and misery will be caused. I don’t see that enough.
I think it was Aquinas who laid out one of the early versions of just war theory. One of the main points is that the intended outcome must be proportional to the harms caused.
What people are questioning is whether a particular encounter or the operation in general were necessary and proportional.
I appreciate the well reasoned response. Whether this is an appropriate or balanced response from Israel, I don't really know, but I'm tired of everyone demanding they be the bigger people, and completely ignoring the actions of Hamas.
You're ignoring the massive power imbalance. You expect people to cast out blame to 2 equal sides, when that really isn't the case. Isreal as a so-called democratic nationstate should be held to a higher standard than a band of extremists.
Edit: tl;dr ITT I try and fail to convey that terrorists using innocent people as meat shields/hostages is wrong and a government bombing those terrorists along with their hostages is also wrong. I dunno how that's too confusing for anyone to understand but I guess some folk truly are lost causes.
Original comment below:
Are you implying that Israel has not done any bombing whatsoever? Or are you implying that terrorists hiding behind innocent people means everyone involved must die by bombing? Or are you just a troll trying to get a reaction from people by posting an obviously ignorant comment?
Let me ask you this, if some bank robbers took your family and friends hostage, what do you think the response should be? By your own logic I must assume that they all need to die because criminals were using them as meat shields. By your logic, if your home is being robbed and the robber uses you as a shield, the response should be to mow you down along with the robber. How unlucky for you that the robber chose your house eh? How ignorant.
And if you're struggling to put yourself in those shoes, good. Be glad that you're so far removed from such dangers. But you are not immune. Criminals and potential terrorists exist everywhere, and I truly hope that if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation that the response isn't what you idolize for innocent people in a foreign land. Because even unemphatic scum don't deserve to die simply for being a hostage.
I'd like to assume that you simply forgot a "/s", and I apologize if the sarcastic intent of your comment was lost, but there are people that truly believe what you've said.
We're not dealing with bank robbers though, are we? We're dealing with a government.
And what does that change exactly? Definition: A government is a group of people governing an organized community. So if that organized community were a bunch of robbers or terrorists, and they had some others to govern them, they are by definition a government. If that government or organized community then holds you hostage, does that somehow make it different compared to if it were just a group of unorganized robbers or terrorists that didn't have leaders? So just because some common criminals have a leader, making them a "government", all of a sudden it's ok to kill you along with them?
Let me simplify that. Gangs are governments by definition, i.e. an organized community with leaders. If you, your family, and/or friends were held hostage by a gang, you are saying it's okay to kill you, your family, and/or friends in the name of killing off some gangsters. If that feels wrong then you need to rethink your opinion because that is a direct equivalence to what is happening between Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. Hamas are the equivalent to gangsters and Israel is the equivalent to the US government acting through the police to murder people you love in the name of killing off gangsters.
Let me answer that first question for you because I now believe you're too thick skulled to figure it out yourself. The fact that it's a "government" changes nothing in regards to another "government" killing innocent people.
Please note, I am not(!!) advocating for Hamas. What they have done and are still doing is fucking terrible. I condemn it with every fiber of my being. But to say that innocent people brought their own deaths upon themselves simply for existing on the wrong side of an imaginary line is fucked up. The only people that are "losing" in this conflict are the innocent people dying on both sides of the imaginary line. And if you can't agree with that I'm done replying. Just because someone is Palestinian doesn't make their deaths any better or worse than if they're Israeli. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians regardless of which side of the line they're on. I condemn any and all violence in this conflict. Both governments think they're in the right and the only people that suffer are those caught in the crossfire. Full stop. May you find a little empathy, have a nice night, and a good life.
You're putting a lot of effort into blaming Israel for defending themselves against a terrorist organisation.
Are you implying that all Palestinian people are apart of "a terrorist organization"? You are beginning to come across as full on racist. At what point does "Justice" turn into terrorism in itself? How many innocent people is it "okay" to kill in the name of defeating a terrorist organization? It isn't just "a terrorist organization" being killed.
Palestinian == terrorist. Hamas == terrorists. Killing hundreds/thousands of Palestinians in order to kill Hamas is not okay. Bombing a hospital filled with Palestinians is not okay.
Also, which is it? Is Hamas "a terrorist organization" or a government?
I'm done arguing with Hamas sympathisers today, sorry.
seems meta around here...
This is a war, so you are basically talking about an urban assault involving thousands of IDF infantry kicking doors down house to house and shooting anyone who shoots at them.
The US did that in Fallujah, and it's pretty gnarly. US had 500 casualties IIRC. The US also told all the residents to evacuate Fallujah before the operation went down.
That's why they're using this strategy. If there were a ton of Israeli soldier casualties on Bibi's watch, the military might let the public remove him from power, or do it themselves. Netanyahu has every motivation to bomb and starve Gaza. The actual solution would have been to build up Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and prefer a two state solution, but that isn't the IDF's goal. Their refusal to do so over the last few decades not only led to this war, but should have told supportive nations that too many Zionists are genocidal theocrats.
The most economical endgame for Israel's current military actions is the forceful expulsion of almost all Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. Occupation is a bad option. They've undermined the movement for coexistence so badly that even a total reversal of policy would be difficult. It's so fucking sad.
America tried bombing a million innocent civilians from the comfort of their lazy ass Texas seat too. Remind me whether they won that war. Surely they didn't leave a giant power vacuum and created many more resistance fighters.
The irony of hiding in a hospital when you literally cause war.
Doesn't it make more sense to argue that the person dropping bombs just doesn't want to admit they missed the target and fucked thousands of people because they're shit at their job? If you were fighting an alien or hunting a foreign agent, and you screwed up and accidentally shot your own family down in flames, you'd probably be rather embarrassed, I sure would be too haha
But hey it's alright nobody will judge even if they knew because the truth is that some jobs suck and just get glamorised on the news and in the media precisely because even the very few who make the cut can still be considered competent