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EU condemns Hamas for using 'hospitals as human shields', urges Israeli restraint (www.reuters.com)

submitted 2 years ago by bboplifa@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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[-] VaultBoyNewVegas@lemmy.world 148 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

This is completely stupid. If Hamas are hiding in hospitals then surely there's a better fucking way to target them than trying to blow the whole fucking place up. One way would be to send a strike team, after all Israel and Mossad are "famous" for hunting terrorists down after the Munich bombing at the Olympics. Yet the same country can only now resort to cutting off infrastructure and bombing refugee camps, ambulances, schools and hospitals plus which is killing aid workers and drs.

[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 77 points 2 years ago

That would only make sense if the goal wasn't revenge and ethnic cleansing.

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[-] MindSkipperBro12@lemmy.world 61 points 2 years ago

I don’t know how strike teams work and such but I doubt it’s as easy as in Call of Duty.

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[-] gedaliyah@lemmy.world 37 points 2 years ago

Exactly! It surely can't be harder to fight 30,000 embedded terrorists than 8 scattered terrorists in hiding.

I think Israel should give them supplies to continue operation until they can be evacuated. And also Israel should give them notice of evacuation weeks in advance so they can prepare. And Israel should be expected to provide alternate medical care.

[-] avater@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago

This is not as easy as you think. You have to get your team to the target, through terrorists hiding among civilians, through IDE’s that are hidden along the way, through civilians that do not like you. And if you miraculously survive this march without heavy casualties the Hamas are already gone and hide somewhere else…not to forget the civilian casualties that would happen on the way…

[-] zenitsu@sh.itjust.works 29 points 2 years ago

jUst sEnd A sTriKe tEam lmao

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[-] Aylex@lemmy.ml 12 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Rather just bomb the fucking place and move on.

Should've added an /s eh

[-] avater@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Not if you look at it from Israel's point of view. The bombing results in less casualites on their side and still hurts the Hamas. I know this sounds cruel and I strongly condemn the civilian casualites, but from a tactical perspective it absolute makes sense and Israel has not that many options, Hamas made it very clear that they will continue so they have to fight them.

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[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 31 points 2 years ago

Why do you blame Israel for the actions of their enemies?

[-] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 50 points 2 years ago

Everyone is blaming Israel for the actions of Israel. I honestly have no idea how you could get this from the comment.

If you feel like you need to defend Israel in this situation, maybe ask yourself why that is. Is it really so difficult to call this obvious war crime out? You can still support them overall but acknowledge their (many) failings. At this point just saying "but Hamas!" in response to every valid criticism looks absolutely pathetic.

[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 21 points 2 years ago

At what point do you think Hamas should take responsibility for hiding behind civilian infrastructure, including digging tunnels under a freaking hospital?

[-] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago

Obviously they should take responsibility. Should Israel take responsibility for it's crimes too?

[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 18 points 2 years ago

So why blame Israel for something Hamas is doing? Why aren't you ranting about them?

[-] OccamsTeapot@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Answer the question

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[-] SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago

For most people, I think that the problem isn’t with Hamas being held responsible. The problem is that people bearing the brunt of Hamas’ and Israeli actions aren’t members of Hamas - they’remedical personnel and patients and civilians in general.

[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 13 points 2 years ago

Yeah, because they're being used as human shields.

[-] SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 years ago

Of course they are. Why else would you set up in a hospital? Doing so (turning hospital into a command post or using a marked ambulance to transport fighters or weapons) is against international law. If it is true that Hamas is doing that in these exact examples and not merely as a general practice), those buildings and vehicles are legal military targets. I was in the business and I’m familiar with all of the arguments and justifications.

What it comes down to, legally, is whether the response was proportional to the threat and whether every attempt was made to restrict damage to civilian infrastructure and persons. Just as a hypothetical example, using an F-16 to drop two bombs on a populated hospital because there’s a couple of snipers on the 6th floor would be a disproportionate response. Using a rocket propelled grenade against that window/room is more proportional, even if there were patients in the same room. Killing them with counter-sniper fire so as to save those patients but still eliminate the threat is the most proportional.

The other dimension, though, is the moral culpability (if you believe in free will) or at least the functional responsibility (if you do not) of designing and launching an operation in which massive amounts of civilian casualties and misery will be caused. I don’t see that enough.

I think it was Aquinas who laid out one of the early versions of just war theory. One of the main points is that the intended outcome must be proportional to the harms caused.

What people are questioning is whether a particular encounter or the operation in general were necessary and proportional.

[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 11 points 2 years ago

I appreciate the well reasoned response. Whether this is an appropriate or balanced response from Israel, I don't really know, but I'm tired of everyone demanding they be the bigger people, and completely ignoring the actions of Hamas.

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[-] Stanard@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Edit: tl;dr ITT I try and fail to convey that terrorists using innocent people as meat shields/hostages is wrong and a government bombing those terrorists along with their hostages is also wrong. I dunno how that's too confusing for anyone to understand but I guess some folk truly are lost causes.

Original comment below:

Are you implying that Israel has not done any bombing whatsoever? Or are you implying that terrorists hiding behind innocent people means everyone involved must die by bombing? Or are you just a troll trying to get a reaction from people by posting an obviously ignorant comment?

Let me ask you this, if some bank robbers took your family and friends hostage, what do you think the response should be? By your own logic I must assume that they all need to die because criminals were using them as meat shields. By your logic, if your home is being robbed and the robber uses you as a shield, the response should be to mow you down along with the robber. How unlucky for you that the robber chose your house eh? How ignorant.

And if you're struggling to put yourself in those shoes, good. Be glad that you're so far removed from such dangers. But you are not immune. Criminals and potential terrorists exist everywhere, and I truly hope that if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation that the response isn't what you idolize for innocent people in a foreign land. Because even unemphatic scum don't deserve to die simply for being a hostage.

I'd like to assume that you simply forgot a "/s", and I apologize if the sarcastic intent of your comment was lost, but there are people that truly believe what you've said.

[-] Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 13 points 2 years ago

We're not dealing with bank robbers though, are we? We're dealing with a government.

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[-] PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee 16 points 2 years ago

This is a war, so you are basically talking about an urban assault involving thousands of IDF infantry kicking doors down house to house and shooting anyone who shoots at them.

The US did that in Fallujah, and it's pretty gnarly. US had 500 casualties IIRC. The US also told all the residents to evacuate Fallujah before the operation went down.

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[-] febra@lemmy.world 57 points 2 years ago

Oh so bombing the hospitals and killing doctors and children was all fine then

[-] bitsplease@lemmy.ml 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Yeah, but they were brown doctors and children, so it's OK

Edit: did I really need a /s?

[-] Uncle_sure@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

Do you have any proof of bombed hospitals? On all of the photos/videos they are perfectly intact. That's why hamas members like to sit in them ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[-] BeautifulMind@lemmy.world 39 points 2 years ago

US Cops shout "stop resisting" as they beat their victims, then later 'deplore' that they 'brought it on themselves' "Hamas should stop resisting" oh the humanity

[-] 5BC2E7@lemmy.world 36 points 2 years ago

It's sad that it took them this long.

[-] satan@r.nf 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

This is just lip service to stay relevant and seem to have any semblance of moral since all the western propaganda have failed to make the world turn on the palestinians.

Now they have to say "hey we, umm… were thinking they're doing bad things too"

What are they going to do if Israel kills double the numbers it already has? NOTHING!!

[-] rigatti@lemmy.world 31 points 2 years ago

I really thought this was The Onion.

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[-] merthyr1831@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago

Don't care, dont fucking bomb hospitals you soulless ghouls
Why are we believing Israel at its word when it's proven they're habitual, professional liars who all but admitted their own role in orchestrating the majority of the civilian deaths on 7th October?

I'm 100% certain this claim will be debunked in a week when someone proves they've just decorated an ICU ward with Hamas flags or some shit. I'll remember all the bloodthirsty pricks who woke up excited at the prospect of denying civilians the right to life and freedom over something they know in their hearts is probably a falsehood.

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[-] MuuuaadDib@lemm.ee 16 points 2 years ago

Does anyone have any evidence that this was actually taking place? It seems like the most moronic and easy excuse to get away with war crimes. Hey did you just blow up that school?? Yes....but umm....Hamas was there! No wait... it was their rocket that did it...yeah wasn't us it was them!

Why does everyone think Israel a notorious nation for spying and being shitty is 100% honest in their findings?

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[-] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Despite it being a good Reuters article, people aren't even reading the second half of the damn title lol.

Edit: Who am I kidding? We know they are but they're going to ignore it for a reason lol.

[-] blazera@kbin.social 12 points 2 years ago

If another country invades your country, certain parts of your own country are off limits to you i guess.

[-] kbotc@lemmy.world 20 points 2 years ago

Yes… that’s literally what “war crimes” are, and Hamas and Israel are speed running to see who can commit more:

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[-] frequenttimetraveler@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

restraint in what?

"Kill 20% less civilians please' . What fuckin dumb rhetoric is this. It's like we live the end of times and words have lost meaning

What kind of restraint can israel have? if hamas was 1% of the population, after all these atrocities it will be 99% of the population. Imagine someone killing your children and then you re supposed to go on living your life because "well shit happened".

Israel has an incentive to exterminate a very large part of the population, especially the young male population before this is over to weaken the next hamas. If they have another plan for post-war life, it's not clear how they imagine life with palestinians near or far.

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this post was submitted on 12 Nov 2023

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