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The poll found 50% of Democrats approve of how Biden has navigated the conflict while 46% disapprove — and the two groups diverge substantially in their views of U.S. support for Israel. Biden’s support on the issue among Democrats is down slightly from August, as an AP-NORC poll conducted then found that 57% of Democrats approved of his handling of the conflict and 40% disapproved.

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[-] RedditReject@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago

I love how the headline sounds so negative, and yet looking at the Numbers they could have easily just said "more Democrats approve of his handling of the crisis".

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago

I mean, almost half the members of his own party disagree with him, not the nation as a whole. If this doesn’t go away, it is not good news.

The old adage come to mind that, “The left fall in love, and the right fall in line.” The right will more reliably vote for “their guy”, but I’ve seen so many losses on the left because of disenchantment.

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

That's part of the problem, though: the left never fell in love with him. He got elected by a small margin in a few key states similar to that of Trump 2016 mainly due to not being Trump rather than any merit of his own.

It might not work a second time since voters have ridiculously short memories and "not the other one" tactics are much less effective for incumbents.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

I agree. It was an anti-Trump vote, not a pro-Biden vote.

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Not to mention some key progressive campaign promises have not materialized or were straight up broken.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Which ones? The ones I followed, he invested more political capital in than I ever expected.

EDIT: My own research, looks like the big one is healthcare. He's constantly talking about it and constantly "doing something behind closed doors" about it, but nothing has manifested yet. I wonder if it's because it would never pass the current congress, or if there's bigger (or more dishonest) reasons.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago

At this point, there's not many things that more than half of Democrats agree on. We're the entire political spectrum of "everything that isn't fascist".

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah there’s more intellectual diversity on the democratic side. When I meet a right winger, it feels like I know what 90% of their opinions are going to be. Whereas Dems have everyone from pro-corporate neo-liberals to European style lefties.

That said, I doubt there’s “not many things that more than half of Democrats agree on.” Abortion rights, Trump being guilty, taxing the rich, universal healthcare, climate change, protecting voting rights, etc. enjoy overwhelming agreement. As in 70-90%.

There’s disagreement too of course: defunding the police, trans rights, reparations… but even these have 60-70%+ support amongst Dems.

I honestly can’t think of any other topic that Democrats disagree with each other as strongly about.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Fair enough. Perhaps my take was slightly hyperbolic.

Gun control is a great example of something Democrats can't agree on. We have gun-grabbers, background-checkers, and even a few NRA-hawks. Details on Healthcare. Reparations are a 50/50, too. The thing in all of those, I think, is that we're willing to compromise.

Actually, looking at some of your bullet points, I see them as party compromise points. Prior to Dobbs, there was a LARGE percent of Democrats who supported what they called "reasonable restrictions" on Abortion, and many still do if tapered by seeing how slippery the slope really was. And going back 10-15 years made it even more of a mixed bag. Pew couldn't get more than 63% of Democrats to agree abortion should be legal "in most cases". Back when Roe was precedent. The thing was, we could all compromise on which cases, and agree that "in no cases" should never be the law of the land. The more anti-choice Democrats were willing to compromise on some propaganda, parental shame forms for underage, etc.

Ditto with healthcare. It's a sad truth, but most Democrats didn't want to see a Public Option in the ACA. It looks like the trend of "Public Option" being fringe flipped in 2020. Probably not a coincidence. I can't find party-split polls pre-2020 right now, but a 2019 poll showed fewer than 25% of Americans wanted a Public option. Even if it was mostly Democrat-leaning voters that said that, we're still looking at less than half. Now, admittedly, we're approaching 70% of all voters who want some sort of public option.

I honestly can’t think of any other topic that Democrats disagree with each other as strongly about.

FPTP Voting, details of abortion rights/restrictions, details of how to handle healthcare. Lots of Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech disagreements that just don't rise to the level of "headliner issue". I'd say any copyright/dmca question is "it's complicated" to Democrats who are informed enough to even speak of it. I can't find numbers on the wealth tax, but they seemed mixed back when Warren was pushing it. Topical to the above discussions, military isolationism vs "world police" attitudes. These are all fairly contentious issues within the United States. Biden seems to represent the plurality view on most of them, which I give him credit for despite my having very different opinions.

EDIT: To clarify, it's a bigger gap for a bigger reason. Almost exactly half of Democrats are neoliberals. And our progressive caucus, almost as big as the neoliberal wing, is diversified between capitalist-progressives, socialists, and other incompatible but good-faith groups. On the big issues, we're either all in compromise or in agreement on a few large bullet points. But on the less-highlit issues, there are fundamental foundational differences of theory of government within our party. The biggest families of issues on that are:

  1. The nature of money and which economic attitude to hold on things like supply and demand
  2. The type and amount of regulations, or workers rights, that should be enforced vs limitations on businesses (or neither/both).
  3. How much power a president should be able to hold, and in what domains

The list goes on. For object example, I'm a passively-anti-union progressive. I think Unions are band-aids. I think they should have all the rights and protections they have, but they are a sign of capitalism remaining dominant with regards to worker laws, and our goal should be to make them useless by making them unnecessary. There's a lot of Democrats that would vote anti-union, but despite my position, I'd vote pro-union as a compromise for my real wants. However, given the option between writing a union protection or a worker protection into a bill, I would fight tooth-and-nail for the worker protection. Many Democrats would fight for the union protection instead.

I mean, what does Means-testing look like WRT welfare in the Democratic party? We're all over the place. People like me say it should be available to everyone regardless of means, where some Labor-friendly neoliberals are happy to leave in "employed" clauses, but want to loosen the income restrictions so that hard-working Americans get the greater benefit. Obviously I am sympathetic to that position as much as I disagree with it.

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Or they could have been brutally honest and said "more than half of democrats approve of enabling genocide".

And before you say "but Trump and the Republicans are much worse", yes that's obviously true but that's besides the point.

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 11 points 1 year ago

If we're truely being honest then the majority of Americans think Isrealis are all descended from holocaust survivors surrounded by Bin Ladens who hate freedom.

American education is extremely hyper focused on itself and itself exclusively. A US student only learns about other countries through the propaganda version of armed conflicts it personally participated in.

[-] Hugin@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

As an American high school student in the early 90's I was taught that Israel was a great friend to the USA and always being attacked just because other countries didn't like Jews.

I have a better understanding of things now but it does help me understand why Israel gets so much support from my and older generations.

[-] Cannacheques@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago

One turtle tells me news that I like to hear and let's me forget about the bastards over there that we keep supporting

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Or they could have been brutally honest and said “more than half of democrats approve of enabling genocide”.

Actually, if they were being genuinely honest, it would be more like "more than half of democrats think Biden's making the best choice in an all-round shitty situation". None of us approve of enabling genocide.

Some people actually think "pushing Israel to set rules of engagement" is some of the best we're going to get if we can't get the entire world on-board. Nobody wants to invade Israel to stop this (do they), and Israel is out for blood right now. Trying to focus them towards Hamas and not "destroying Palastine" might be the only win we can have 7,000 miles away.

I'm a fence-sitter on this issue, but I think the majority that supports Biden's plan do so for reasons that have nothing to do with "enabling genocide".

I get that you want us to condemn Israel. And I'm sure it's been considered. I also undersetand there are ramifications to the US of doing that, and it won't necessarily save a single Palestinian life.

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Actually, if they were being genuinely honest, it would be more like "more than half of democrats think Biden's making the best choice in an all-round shitty situation". None of us approve of enabling genocide.

That's a self-contradiction since what you guys think is the "best choice" is objectively enabling genocide by unquestioningly supporting the government committing it while punishing those that speak up against it.

Some people actually think "pushing Israel to set rules of engagement" is some of the best we're going to get

It isn't, though. Israel has been setting their own rules the whole time and that's the majority of what caused the whole thing.

Nobody wants to invade Israel

Of course not.

Israel is out for blood right now. Trying to focus them towards Hamas and not "destroying Palastine" might be the only win we can have 7,000 miles away.

That's not being done, though. Unless there's consequences such as withholding military (but not humanitarian) aid and possibly targeted sanctions, the apartheid regime is going to continue committing atrocities.

I think the majority that supports Biden's plan do so for reasons that have nothing to do with "enabling genocide".

Yes and no: I believe that most of the people who supports his genocide-enabling are under- or misinformed enough to not know that they're indirectly supporting genocide.

I get that you want us to condemn Israel.

Of course. Anything else is being complicit.

And I'm sure it's been considered.

Probably not seriously, no. The neoliberal Dem leadership depend too much on bribes from AIPAC and others like them.

I also undersetand there are ramifications to the US of doing that, and it won't necessarily save a single Palestinian life

I guarantee you that no longer getting the financial and political support of the US would force them to be less aggressive, which would save thousands of lives.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That’s a self-contradiction since what you guys think is the “best choice” is objectively enabling genocide

I think objectively doesn't mean what you think it means. But more importantly, even if you're right about there being a better response than Biden's (and you might be; it's a complicated issue), that doesn't mean people who support Biden's position agree that you're right. Which means, NO, objectively, they do not "approve of enabling genocide". Just look at literally the other reply to me that agreed with me at length. And if there are at least two people who support Biden's decisions in this thread alone that do not "approve of enabling genocide", then I bet you any money there's at least 2 more out in the US. "Perhaps more than that!"

I called you on your bad-faith accusation that Democratic voters "approve of enabling genocide", and nothing in your reply to me reduces the accuracy of what I called you on. You're just getting into the weeds arguing politics now.

If you want, I'd be happy to join that conversation as well. As soon as you concede that the "approve of enabling genocide" thing was excessive and bad faith.

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

It's a fact that the tack Biden is taking amounts to enabling genocide. Whether you know that or not, saying you approve of his handling of the situation is saying that you approve of enabling genocide no matter if you know it or not.

In other words:

  1. Biden's plan is objectively enabling genocide

  2. Some people who don't consider themselves in favor of enabling genocide support Biden

  3. The thing that those people say they support is enabling genocide, no matter how ignorant of reality or in denial they are.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Curious who made Viking Hippie the sole arbiter of truth. How many experts disagreeing with you makes it less "we're all objectively enabling genocide"?

What if I think Viking Hippie is "objectively enabling genocide"? It's a fact (ok, it's just a thought experiment). That means I get to say anyone that agrees with you is "objectively enabling genocide", right?

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

3 days to come back with "you're wrong because it's arrogant to be confident that you're you're right when people are paid to be wrong"? Damn, you're really bad at this! 😂

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

With all due respect, when your opinion is "your argument AND the supermajority is wrong because I said so", you don't leave an opening for anything more constructive.

I don't make a good Soyjak

[-] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

What supermajority would that be? Only Republicans surpass the 60% threshold and surely you don't consider them arbiters of truth.

As for what I'm basing my argument on, it's the Geneva Convention and countless UN motions defeated by ridiculous vetoes from a partisan US delegation.

What the Israeli government is doing is by definition several kinds of war crimes, including genocide and ethnic cleansing.

That's what Biden is supporting by supporting the Israeli government so, whether you're aware of it and generally ok with genocide or not, supporting what Biden is doing is by definition supporting the enabling of genocide.

Do you get it now or are your partisan blinders so thick as to make you ideologically incapable of understanding that those you support can sometimes do indefensible things?

[-] OrteilGenou@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

The headline is supposed to reflect the story. "More than half of Democrats support Israel" is "Dog Bites Man", there's nothing surprising. The fact that almost as many are opposed is the "Man Bites Dog" part.

this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
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