369
Lewiston, Maine shootings leave at least 16 dead
(www.cnn.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2023
369 points (100.0% liked)
News
23353 readers
2718 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
The guy is white. When do we start hearing something about “mental health care” that nobody will do anything about?
Well, at least the two of us aren’t okay with this. I’m not desensitized to it. And I never will be. I don’t accept this as “just the way it is now”.
Sure they will. The millions of children who went to school each day knowing they were the target of domestic terrorists and were not just sold out by Republicans and the gun lobby but spat on by the pro-gun crowd.
They'll abolish the second amendment, condemning it to the history books with all the other shitty things America did like the genocide of the native population and the enslavement of black people.
The highest percentage turnout of 18-29 year olds in the 2022 election cycle was in Michigan and only 36% of them voted with abortion rights on the ballot.
They're going to have to turn out in higher numbers across the states to do anything like what you're suggesting.
Kick any dog enough and it'll bite.
Whoa whoa whoa. We haven't even gotten to thoughts and prayers. Then comes mental health. Last is the "it's too soon to talk about this". Then the cycle starts anew.
To be fair, the guy did actually self checkin to a mental facility this summer for two weeks and was released. Additionally, Maine is a yellow flag state where firearms can be taken away via a mental health review. (To be clear, this is NOT enough in my opinion).
One of many sources https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/northeast/ap-police-say-theres-an-active-shooter-in-lewiston-maine-and-they-are-investigating-multiple-scenes/
When I searched to see if Maine had red flag laws, all the top results were people opposed to them.
There's a good chance the shooter was one of them, since it looks like he is a "responsible gun owner" that's even more "responsible" than most.
Of course, the pro-gun crowd will seethe if you call him that, but the reality is that he had their full support when he bought a semi-automatic weapon. He still had it when he started hearing voices. He still had it when he started prowling the streets in open carry. Fuck, they probably would have given him the benefit of the doubt when he raised it to fire on an innocent person, as long as he was staunch Republican.
But the moment he pulled the trigger, it becomes "Oh that guy? Yeah he was never one of us. Doesn't count".
Then they'll claim its a mental health problem because he had mental health issues and the gun he used to maximise the number of people he killed and wounded had nothing to do with it.
Then they'll insist that they'll totally entertain the idea of gun control after a mental healthcare system is built that can cure every single man, woman and child in America of serious mental health problems, even the ones that don't want care, so completely they can be trusted with guns for the rest of their lives because they'll never falter and also fuck you we're not paying for it.
He had mental healthcare.
He also had a legally purchased AR-15.
He legally did not. They ask you on the BG check if you have any mental health issues.
Tell me again how gun control laws would have stopped this?
How about I detail all the ways he could have gotten a gun under your laws that you enable that are in effect right now?
He bought the guns before he had mental health issues and red flag laws weren't used because police are far-right and pro-gun and put cultish, bullshit ideology before people's lives.
He just lied or had someone else lie and the gun laws you're rushing to the defense of completely failed to catch it because they're hopelessly inadequate and designed to put lobby profits before people's lives.
At this point, we've covered 80% of mass shooters so we're looking good statistically.
Now we've covered over 90% of mass shooters, but most of these ones are children.
He bought the gun in a private sale that didn't require a background check because for some surreal reason, the pro-gun crowd is completely okay with that and fights the closing of the loophole.
He bought a previously legally purchased, poorly secured, promptly stolen gun from a stranger, because illegal firearms don't grow on trees, they're endlessly (and profitably!) by millions of people like yourself.
Which covers 99% of mass shooters. Of course deep down, you already knew all of that didn't you?
You're just not allowed to admit it out loud, because the moment you admit that in fact yes, gun control could have stopped many of these clearly telegraphed attacks, you'd have to also admit that you pushed for the laws that killed those people.
So how about instead of me explaining "how gun control laws would have stopped this" over and over again, you go fuck yourself?
You've overthrown zero tyrants. You've done nothing to lower the crime rate. You've let "suicide with dad's protect-my-family gun" become the number one cause of death for teenagers. You've insisted for 25 years that you have the answers and you've failed every single time.
Lol so no you don't have any ideas on how more gun control would have stopped this...also hilarious that you bring up the police being far right....all the while wanting to disarm people lol yes please tell me how giving far right racist bullies Monopoly on force is a good thing.
Oh did you solve racism with your cool guns? Did you stop state violence?
Nope, of course you didn't. You're full of shit like always and minorities are safer in countries with gun control.
Just another day of the pro-gun crowd delivering on zero of their promises.
" 'No way to prevent this' , says the only developed country where mass shootings happen regularly."
A pretty simple how for that case would be to have a protected database where mental health professionals and institutions would report individuals with issues deemed worryng enough to bar from purchasing a gun. Then during the background check they would reference that db. If the person being checked is verified to be in that db fail the check. Maybe have some revaluation options or whatever but it's not hard to imagine how reasonable laws that are actually enforced could actually help. The half baked laws that are half assed enforced and then held up as an example of any laws at all being fundamentally impossible just isn't convincing.
This won't work. Do you want more unmedicated people with guns?
People with mental health issues wouldn't ever seek care if owning a firearm was linked to healthcare. Now we're stigmatizing mental health treatment.
We want people to get care and be managed so they can live a normal life.
Yeah that's an issue that I would anticipate as well but at least now we are exploring options and identifying what may or may not work and what the trade offs are rather than pretending that it's an impossibility like Mario was doing.
If they wanted that, they'd do things like oppose red flag laws, insist background checks remained functionally optional, oppose effective waiting periods and oppose mandatory safe storage laws.
Is "some people care more about their guns than the safety and mental health of themselves and their family" supposed to be an argument for the existing gun laws?
Who exactly is "we" here?
The pro-gun community rushes to blame anyone but themselves, all the while seething with indignation that they get lumped in with people who murder their partners or kill as many children as they can, just because they bought the same guns, from the same stores, under the same systems, with the same requirements as the murderer.
But boy they're not shy doing unto others.
Half the world population will experience mental health problems in their lifetime. If the 80% of mass murderers using legally purchased guns is a low enough figure to sweep under the rug, the fraction of a fraction of mentally ill people carrying out mass murders isn't even a speck of dust.
This man received urgent mental healthcare, to the standard that modern healthcare can provide anywhere in the world. Then he killed 20 people and injured over a dozen more with his legal firearm.
If you're so certain that mental healthcare is the answer, you can give up your guns until you finish building your perfect healthcare utopia. Maybe you could start with the military, since apparently you have to be mentally ill to kill someone with a gun.
Until then, the current gun laws are horrifically and demonstrably inadequate at keeping guns out of the hands of violent people, despite 25 years of pro-gun cultists insisting that they and they alone have the solutions.
This guy was barred from having a firearm already.
Are you sure you're not confusing him with the previous mass shooter in Maine from 6 months ago?
I know they're hard to keep track of when they happen every month but as far as I've been able to tell, 2 days ago this man was a "responsible gun owner" who wasn't disarmed using the red flags laws (that the pro-gun crowd opposes) despite seeking urgent treatment for mental health problems (which the pro-gun crowd insists is the solution).
Naa this guy should have had his firearms pulled the second he was involuntarily committed. This is a failure of law enforcement once again.
Do we know if he bought the gun before or after the mental health problems were diagnosed?
We don’t have many laws that will take the guns away after diagnosis, and worse, we seem to have a police force that’s not willing to enforce those laws when they do exist.
Even if he bought them before, involuntary commitment means Leos should be taking them....but as you just stated most LEOs don't talk to each other or do what they need to be doing.
I think this is true: He had some from before and also bought a .308 sniper rifle after having mental issues. There's a lot of info about this guy btw. He made threats to shoot up two different military national guard posts. He committed himself and asked for further treatment when he was being released. Oh, and I thought this was the typical veteran PTSD kind of issue. Actually no, he was trained but didn't see combat. He was having some seriously mind-altering mental breakdowns. His guns were probably talking to him.
If only there were 194 other countries out there that don't have this problem. Then we could have somewhere to look and see if maybe having a gun store on every corner is contributing to this problem.
There are 450+ million firearms in civ hands, if we had a gun problem you would know.
If you're talking about ATF form 4473, it asks "have you ever been adjudicated as a mental detective, OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution", not whether you have any mental health issues.
That form is also not a background check, that's the NICS check, which is separate.
And that's only at time of purchase, so I assume he bought the gun prior to being committed.
That form is part of what's feed into the NICS, and even if he did buy them before. The second he was involuntarily committed he was supposed to have his firearms removed. The ATF and local LE should have been the ones to do so.
It's almost like those programs don't work, and we just need a total prohibition on guns 🤷
Clearly the best course is something that failed before and only keeps the criminals armed. Brilliant
How does everyone forget to use the "people will just do it anyway" argument for every other law. When do we legalize all drugs because people just do them anyway
Why stop at drugs? If we're binning laws because people do them anyway, we can legalise rape, murder, DUI, even child slavery.
But maybe don't give them any ideas -- gun sales would sky-rocket and ultimately most pro-gun people are just simps to corporate interests.
https://elk.zone/mstdn.social/@Strandjunker/111301755969285547
edit:
more simply: https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527
That wasn't a prohibition though, I was referring to any number of actual prohibitions. Like alcohol in the 20s and such.
There's no denying taking something built to kill away can reduce said killings and I'm very much for sane, logical gun control. However, the point is that all out prohibition is neither historically or even mathematically feasible considering there are more of them than actual Americans (another problem we have). Do you understand the nuance?
No they didn't, because they weren't really a thing at the time...also columbine and VT happened with handguns during the AWB....it was sunset because it didn't do anything.
Are you refuting these stats and do you want to provide a source for that?
Also, saying that some gun violence happened so that means gun control doesn't work is nonsense. It's like "well some died in a car crash so seat belts and airbags don't work."
The facts on this one just aren't on your side. Looking at this either way - the US is a third world country when it comes to gun violence, and secondarily, countries with relatively little to no gun control have extreme rates of gun violence.
I dunno. Seems like most developed nations have figured it out. What's so special about the US?
How are the gun violence stats looking after 25 years of the pro-gun community insisting they have the solutions?
Should we plot them on a chart next to the profitability of the gun manufacturers?
Maybe your next solution could focus on tracking down that magic gun fairy that keeps giving guns to criminals, since they're definitely not being supplied and enabled by responsible gun owners like yourself.
You completely misunderstood my point and can see my other response for clarity. While I'm on your side in general and think we need far more control, you are doing the movement a disservice by trying the "how are the numbers?" argument when it's such a poor choice.
When you go look up your stats to prove me wrong, remember how the classifications work and that data can be spun. That way when you see gun violence overall is actually down and how single person handgun suicides and gang violence data is used to juice the numbers (both directions), you might understand there's far better arguments for gun control. Be an ally, not a hindrance.
Nope, don't push this trash. Every single gun death was a preventable death and not a single one should be swept under the rug.
Means reduction and survivability play a massive role in the suicide prevention.
Widespread legal firearms allow distressed people to end their lives in a split second impulse, robbing them of an opportunity to be helped.
Only 1 in 10 people who attempt suicide will go on to die by suicide, but the survival rate for attempts with guns is practically zero.
Teenagers are blowing their brains out with their guns of their "responsible gun owner" fathers who no doubt bragged about how he was going to "keep his family safe", then failed to secure it from a deeply distressed child.
You can also fuck off with the "gang violence" stuff, which is frequently code for "don't worry, they're only black people".
There is no magic gun fairy arming them. They either bought the gun at a store because the system is deeply flawed or they stole it from a "responsible gun owner" that failed to secure it.
But even writing it all off as "just criminals doing crime", it's still bullshit. Innocent people are killed, maimed and traumatised by both armed criminals and the trigger happy police who use them as an excuse.
And just how much gun violence are they responsible for? Roughly the same as domestic abusers who kill their partners. Want to hand wave them away too?
Those figures are include in the gun violence stats because they're a symptom of the gun problem.
If you want to be an "ally", the first step is to stop pushing the talking points of racists and lobby groups.
Not a single source or actual number posted after all that bluster. You tell me not to push trash and you keep pulling irrelevant numbers out of your ass. And that racism line? Holy shit, what a coward you are cherry picking and trying to paint me as a dog whistle user. I wish you could see how off the mark you are but that'll never happen.
Congratulations on being the first absolute dumbfuck of my Lemmy experience (I should have known by the username). It's a shame, because you mean well but why would I bother to engage further? Fuck off.
Your comments aren't exactly riddled with carefully sourced statistics -- you even tried to pre-empt people finding you factually wrong with claims of figures being manipulated.
But fortunately you don't seem to hold yourself to the same standard you hold others.
If you don't want your hot take sounding racist, don't repeat the talking points of racists verbatim. It's literally lifted from Bill O'Reilly.
No thanks, I have no interest in whatever context the rest of your life may offer. You wrote a comment that reads exactly like a sock puppet, fully aware that the people on this site know nothing about you beyond your username.
Probably so you could regurgitate more apologism about which people killed with guns are allowed in the "people killed with guns" statistics.
Just as important, cracking down on capitalists. Recovering the wealth they've stolen, and using it to help provide not just for health care. But housing and food security. So people don't have to live under the dread and constant stress to their mental state. That capitalists have engineered to facilitate their theft.
Do we really need to change our laws because some lone wolf who clearly had no political positions at all totally did not get weaponized by the media and churned through a system that literally hands guns to the mentally ill?