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this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2023
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“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21)”
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)”
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
Timothy 2:12
"But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head."
Corinthians 11:5-6
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."
Colossians 3:22-24
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"
Titus 2:9-10
“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.”
Peter 2:18
You're cherry picking without context.
For example, the quote about slaves in Exodus was not a teaching. It's historical context about law at that time. That verse was intended to prevent brutalities towards slaves (which at the time were either hired labourers or in indebted servitude who literally sold themselves to pay off a debt, they were freed or "released" when the monetary value of their debt was paid off. It's not the same as the term for slavery we commonly associate with the it today). The only time a slave was to be beaten was for punishment, like attacking another person, stealing, raping, etc. It's not like they had the local Sheriff's office they could call, so land owners (who were often days away from nearby settlements) would be the legal authority of that area.
The wording that if a slave survives for a day or two was used to determine intent, as it was considered that if someone survives for a couple days after being punished then something else was also the cause of death, and not a direct result of the punishment enacted.
Ultimately the point here is that this isn't a "teaching" in any way. Some things in the Bible are just historical facts and context.
Timothy 2:12 (I know you mean 1 Timothy even though you didn't specify, because there's a 1 Timothy and a 2 Timothy) also needs context, because that scripture is about spiritual matters. It's like a chain of command for the purposes of order. This is something that you cannot pull a single scripture out and use only that as an example. There are many other scriptures that expand on this. For example, a man/husband is supposed to treat his wife like his own body and like a "weaker vessel" (implying a delicate and gentle approach), and anyone who does not hates himself and God.
Corinthians 11:5-6 - (which Corinthians? There's two of them) how is this torture? It's just about head coverings, and one that's often taken out of context. Verse 11 and 12 say *"Besides, in connection with the Lord, neither is woman separate from man nor is man separate from woman. 12 For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God."
Verse 15 also says "For her hair is given to her instead of a covering"
Basically neither man or women are better than the other, both are from God and that's all that matters.
Titus 2:9-10 - You could literally replace "slave" with employee and "master" with boss or CEO, and then no one would say boo. As I mentioned earlier, the term slave is not the dehumanizing one we often use. Its modern counterpart is very close to "employee".
Colossians 3:22-24, Leviticus 25:44-46, Peter 2:18 - same argument, because the term slave in these verses are not what you are attributing to it.
Edit: clarified about indebted servitude being about paying off a debt
This is probably the worst abuse of the "but context!" argument I have ever seen. Consideration of context is one thing, but you are just making up a more palatable meaning because that's what you want to see. There is no actual context that changes what these verses mean, and your charitable interpretation of the word 'slave" is actually removing the true historical context.
Context is king.
Absolutely not. The meaning of a single verse is meaningless without the broader context. Something that says "you must obey Jesus" means nothing until you understand *who" Jesus is.
I think you're mis-applying a different historical context.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_slavery
"Broadly, the Biblical and Talmudic laws tended to consider slavery a form of contract between persons, theoretically reducible to voluntary slavery, unlike chattel slavery, where the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner."
It's not a teaching, it just explicitly tells people what to do and not to do. Makes sense.
Hired laborers and indentured servants whom you could beat and abuse, and had no freedom of their own. Hmm, I wonder if there's a word for that...
The wording that if a slave survives for a day or two was used to determine intent, as it was considered that if someone survives for a couple days after being punished then something else was also the cause of death, and not a direct result of the punishment enacted.
It's not a teaching, it just explicitly tells people what to do and not to do. Makes sense.
You're very clever, congratulations.
You can give all the context you want, that's sexism, plain and simple.
A chain of command you cannot change, that is not based on knowledge or experience, but on what's between your legs.
Or not so clever, I guess.
We have this wonderful new technology called google. Feel free to use it.
Or not, since it was created by the devil of science.
Forcing women to shave their heads sure sounds like dominating to me...
Men aren't forced to shave their hair, and using your analogy, they are always higheron the chain of command than women.
Except CEOs aren't allowed to beat up employees, and employees are free to leave.
"Employees, be subject to your CEOs with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse."
And all of this not even talking about the rampant homophobia, genocide, etc commanded in the bible
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_slavery
"Broadly, the Biblical and Talmudic laws tended to consider slavery a form of contract between persons, theoretically reducible to voluntary slavery, unlike chattel slavery, where the enslaved person is legally rendered the personal property (chattel) of the slave owner."
"Ancient Israelite society allowed slavery; however, total domination of one human being by another was not permitted.[16][17] Rather, slavery in antiquity among the Israelites was closer to what would later be called indentured servitude.[15] Slaves were seen as an essential part of a Hebrew household.[18] In fact, there were cases in which, from a slave's point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom."
"Although not prohibited, Jewish ownership of non-Jewish slaves was constrained by Rabbinic authorities since non-Jewish slaves were to be offered conversion to Judaism during their first 12-months term as slaves. If accepted, the slaves were to become Jews, hence redeemed immediately. If rejected, the slaves were to be sold to non-Jewish owners. Accordingly, the Jewish law produced a constant stream of Jewish converts with previous slave experience. Additionally, Jews were required to redeem Jewish slaves from non-Jewish owners, making them a privileged enslavement item, albeit temporary. The combination has made Jews less likely to participate in enslavement and slave trade."
"The Torah forbids the return of runaway slaves who escape from their foreign land and their bondage and arrive in the Land of Israel. Furthermore, the Torah demands that such former slaves be treated equally to any other resident alien."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servitude
"Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years. The contract, called an "indenture", may be entered "voluntarily" for purported eventual compensation or debt repayment, or it may be imposed "involuntarily" as a judicial punishment. "
Yes, there's a lot more in that Wikipedia page, but Jewish history expands well past the Bible and the 1st century. I'm just focusing on the Biblical period.
Slavery pre-American colonial settlement is far more nuanced than people realize. Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast goes into immense detail in the Humane Resources episode (and that's "humans as resources" in the title).
Is it though? Because 1 Corinthians says "For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God.” Which is to say neither men or women are above the other, they are equal to God.
True, but an employee at a large company cannot become the CEO (yes, I know it's "technically" possible, but how often does that happen?). I know you'll disagree on this, and that's fine, we can disagree. But my position is that this "order" isn't oppressive in any way. There's no privilege or power in the role (there isn't supposed to be, but we know that it has been abused countless times). It's only meant to be a role to be assign leadership to a clearly defined person in the family. A "leader" doesn't control the people they are leading, they simply the person that gives guidance for the group as a whole. Anyways, we're going to disagree on this.
I knew which Corinthians was being referenced. I was pointing out that OP keeps referencing scriptures without giving all the details. Which matters because they've been touting their expertise and deep knowledge in the topic.
Men (in ancient Israel) are required to do other things, like cut the tip of their genitals off.
Taking a single example is cherry-picking. There are many things that were required of both men and women, and people in all different stations.
Because in modern days we have extensive and well established legal codes and policing infrastructures. Back in the Bible on a farm being worked by many people, the closest settlement would have been many hours, if not days away. There was no local police station, no 911 or emergency services. Land owners were thus expected to be the ones enforcing the law on their land. We also have extensive and meticulous laws covering all kinds of topics, scenarios, and conditions that are recorded in explicit detail. Back then most people didn't read, and if they did they definitely didn't have any access to a copy of the law. As such laws were often simple and not complex so that the average person could grasp and remember them.
That being said, slavery in the Bible isn't what you think it is (as I mentioned earlier in my comment). A slave would only receive such punishment if they did something extremely heinous, like murder someone.
Edit: formatting, clarification
What you forgot you mention about the wikipedia page, is that these are not facts, but quotes from a religious scholar.
A religious scholar, who would greatly benefit from people thinking of positively of his religion.
If google puts it on their wikipedia page that them avoiding hundreds of millions in taxes is in context a really good thing, would you believe them?
I don't even need to respond to it, it just speaks for itself.
Yes. It's literally "All of you are equal, some are just more equal than others".
Ah, I see. "Seperate but equal".
It is possible, and it does happen.
In fact, every employee can start their own company and become its CEO.
A more apt analogy would be, a company where white people can become managers and C-suite, but black people cannot.
Would you support this?
"The condition in which one person is owned as property by another and is under the owner's control, especially in involuntary servitude."
Yep, that fits.
I'll never understand how people like you can sink to such levels, defending slavery.
And again, the rampant homophobia.
This assumes all religious scholars have a nefarious agenda. I don't doubt some or many do, but no more so than the final population average. There are many who genuinely want to help others and believe in teaching and sharing peace.
Because you think "slavery" means the same thing across all time. That level of willful ignorance speaks for itself also.
No, it's all are equal but not everyone can have the same job and responsibilities. Not everyone can be the owner of a company (unless you're WestJet).
Just "equal".
I did specify "large corporation" in my example. Thanks for ignoring that.
Involuntary servitude under the law (back in the era we're talking about) had clear definitions. It was often invoked to collect a debt and could only be held until the debt was paid off, not longer. Captured non-Hebrew enemies were also sometimes put under involuntary servitude. But they were required to either convert, at which point they would be freed. Or else sold off to a non-Hebrew.
And I'll never understand how people can have such reductionist ways of thinking. "Slavery", as it's used today, is technically "chattel slavery", which is different. They have similar letters in English, but are not the same thing. Some translations even use different terms because the modern English word "slavery" has a different meaning. Indentured and voluntary servitude were commonplace back then. Today it isn't. Although the relationship between an employee and employer share many of the same definitions. "Slaves" under voluntary servitude were even able to "seek a new master". Basically find a new job. Such cruelty.
Well, this one clearly does, as he's trying to whitewash slavery to make his religion look better. Seems pretty nefarious to me.
They are ot free to leave, and can be abused by their masters at will. It's close enough.
Except the high jobs and high responsiblilities are only available to men.
You know your arguments about this sound familiar to those used by pro-segregationits. I would say something about strange bedfellows, but since you're agruing for thr same thing, I guess it's not so strange.
Of course, you forget to mention how none of this forgiveness applies to women, who weren't freed after six years/the debt being paid off, and could instead be forcibly taken as a wife.
And of course slaves taken from neighbouring countries weren't to be returned or freed, they were slaves for life.
Voluntary servitude? Maybe.
Were they able to get a new job under involuntary servitude? No. So slavery.
But indentured servitude with physical abuse is still slavery, and the bible supports it. No way around it.
There's a saying that when democracy doesn't favour conservatives, they don't turn from conservatism, they'll turn on democracy. As it turns out it also applies to christans: when christians find out the bible supports slavery, they don't turn of the bible, instead they'll start saying slavery was actually good. And lo and behold...
And of course the rampant homophobia.
I really don't care about your religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash slavery.
It does come with pay, as well and power and influence.
I'm hearing reality and ignoring the delusional falsehoods you're saying, yes.
You're also ignoring the part where women slaves could be forced to marry their masters, where men could not.
But they were completely equal, right?
I didn't say that for the part where it says how you can beat your slave.
It didn't say that for the part about dashing babies into rocks.
It didn't say that for child murder.
Oh, I see. When something supports agenda then it's the bible's core message, but when something doesn't look to good for it, then it's just recorded in it, and also out of context.
How convenient.
If you haven't noticed, the bible frequently contradicts itself.
Huh, so this wasn't a quote used by you?
"In fact, there were cases in which, from a slave's point of view, the stability of servitude under a family in which the slave was well-treated would have been preferable to economic freedom."
Sure bud, I'll rephrase. I really don’t care about your totally non-religious podcast, especially one that tries to whitewash indentured servitude.
Them too. But you only need to look at how the christian churches protect pedophiles and abusers, help them escape the law and reoffend again to see how much power and influence they get.
Plus, the catholic church alone is worth billions, with land holdings, historical artifacts, etc.
Becoming a high-ranking member grants you influence over your underlings and delusional people, food and shelter for the rest of your life, etc.
Feel free to quote the verse where it says you can only beat slaves as judicial punishment.
And that context just happens to be in form of direct commandments. Oops.
I think plenty of people would prefer to be poor and free then to be fed and a slave.
But if you think otherwise, would you be in favor of putting all homeless and poor people in involuntary servitude? Since it's preferable to welfare and starving, according to you.
Of course.
And when the bible says all homosexuals must be killed, what metaphor is that? Or is it missed context?
I tend to do that when the person I'm arguing against supports such despicable things.
I looked up dan carlin and he has a some christian podcast called Word Christian Fellowship podcast. But sure, not religious or bias.
Unable to be objective by agreeing with you that slavery was a good thing? Are you listening to yourself?
Are you his publicist or something? You're trying really hard so sell his stuff.
It seems your forgot to answer this:
I think plenty of people would prefer to be poor and free then to be fed and a slave.
But if you think otherwise, would you be in favor of putting all homeless and poor people in involuntary servitude? Since it’s preferable to welfare and starving, according to you.
And then of course there’s all the homophobia in the bible, but that seems to be a positive to people such as you who support sex based discrimination.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Matthew 5:17–18
It's still in effect according to your prophet and the son of your god, but you surely know more than him.
You said: "The Bible doesn’t teach dominating and torturing people, for one."
I gave to plenty of evidence, from the bible directly, that it teaches dominating and torturing people, you just choose to disregard facts because it does not agree with your narrative, which seems to be an epidemic with you religious types.
That (unlike slavery) is not a despicable things, so I won't argue against it. Maybe try understanding my argument before trying (and failing) to come up with a snappy reply.
Again, I won't buy any of his content. I don't care for slavery apoligists.
I'm keenly aware that christians forced their religion on everybody they could when it was acceptable. Thankfully, it's less acceptable now, but we still have ways to go. Thanks for reminding me how christianity pushed back the progess of science and humanity by centuries.
You did quote the wikipedia article that said that...
I looked up his name and his christian podcast came up, I went to his website where he is selling is podcast episodes.
I didn't need to discredit him, he did that all on his own.
So you just argue for this you don't belive in and agree with?
This is you, by the way:
And he is a homophobe as well, what a surprise...
I would think you really didn't need to argue the fact that slavery is a bad thing, but the bible and you seem to disagree.
The arguments was about if the bible teaches to dominate and torture people, by the way, not just about slavery.
I just though that you'd agree that slavery counted as dominating and torturing people. How wrong I was.
Well, if the "source material" is a supposedly supernatural book and religion, and a pastor's podcast for that religion, I really don't need to undermine it, it already undermined itself.
How brave of you to leave an argument you lost.
I don't misrepresent what you said, you're just insinuating I did, becuase you realized your arguments sound really bad when you put them out there.