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Defederated from Feddit.nl. Update: Refederated!
(lemmy.world)
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Stuff like this is going to kill the momentum of the fediverse. I'm a reddit refugee, my main account started on vlemmy.net (because it had a policy to not defederate from anything), and when that went poof, I moved to feddit.nl (because it has a policy to not defederate from anything). I believe it is MY prerogative, and no one else's, to decide what I am or am not allowed to see. I curate my own feed by blocking or subscribing to instances I don't or do want to see, respectively.
Regardless of any of this, however, I am now unable to view any content on .world without this account, due to actions entirely outside of my control. Since hosting my own instance is out of the question for me, my options are: find a third instance with a no-defederation policy that hasn't been defederated itself from major instances, have multiple accounts and browse each instance individually, stop browsing altogether, or go back to reddit. As distasteful as the last option is, it's tempting. I know the impulse will be to tell me "good riddance", but I am posting this because I know there are others like me that are tired of instance hopping and trying to find somewhere that doesn't try to police our browsing and also isn't defederated from major instances.
For the record, I don't want a no-defederation instance because I want to browse Nazi or pedo instances. I want a no-defederation instance because I have a principled objection to others telling me what I can or cannot view.
I actually prefer that instances can do this, the whole point is to find one you more closely align with like old school forums. The ones they’ve done this to are either mass brigading, full of Nazis or sharing CSAM. They have every right to protect their users from that kind of stuff or make those decisions when they’re individuals paying to run an instance.
Until there’s a tool I can use to fully block instances myself (which I don’t see available) this is the way it’s run. Maybe the fediverse just isn’t for you? As someone who grew up using old school forums this is completely fine and expected. If I am running a website (or store) I have every right to manage it the way I see fit.
If defederation worked more like a shadowban, I would agree with you. .world defederating with feddit.nl could result in no one from .world seeing any content posted by anyone from .nl, but .nl can still see the content from .world. It's unfortunate that .nl couldn't participate anymore, but it's better than that community ceasing to exist.
Defederations as they exist now are like being in a restaurant. There are two employees, one makes the food, the other makes the drinks. It starts out with being able to order either, or both, right from the comfort of your table. However, the owner of the restaurant decides that he just doesn't care much for drinks, and kicks out the drink-maker. The drink-maker opens a new store across the street, but he does not serve food, only drinks, and the restaurant you started at doesn't serve drinks, only food. Yes, technically, you are still free to go across the street to get some drinks, or stay here for some food, but boy, wouldn't it be nicer if that owner never decided he didn't like drinks? Sure, not EVERYONE in the restaurant cares, but a pretty significant amount of them probably would. They might just go down the street to McReddits. Sure, the food there is pretty bad, but at least they can get both food and drinks without having to go across the street.
A user on there posted CSAM. Given that images federate too and that moderation over there seems to be lacking, do you not think it's unrealistic not to expect defederation?
I never said I didn't understand. I'm pointing out a problem that can, and I believe, will, lead to issues with user retention. If one is punished for the bad actions of someone on their instance that they have no control over, it will lead to frustration. I know this because it has happened to me twice now- once with vlemmy disappearing due to someone posting something bad that spooked the admin, and now feddit.nl because someone posted something bad that spooked these admins. I'm not saying it's not understandable, I'm merely saying that a problem exists.
I expect the Admin's priority was to worry about potentially inadvertently hosting CSAM rather than user retention.
Which you want someone else to be legally responsible for providing you with.
What about abusive users that post in communities outside of their home instance? I think that's what we're talking about here. I can block instances, but there are communities in Lemmy.world that I enjoy and I appreciate the admins effort to keep abusive users out.
There is a common thread in your complaints. This isn't a problem that's going to kill the fediverse it's a problem with instances without moderation. Turns out shitty instances that don't care about moderation are the same ones that "have a policy to not defederate from anything". Stop joining shitty instances that allow literally illegal content and you won't have that problem.
Yes, but I outlined my reasons for wanting no defederation. VLemmy was perfect- refused to defederate, actively moderated- until the issue with image federation spooked him. Also, saying "illegal content" is a bit meaningless on a globally distributed platform. On both instances- feddit.nl and VLemmy- many users outlined very similar rationale to me when the issue of defederation came up, and you and I both know that defederation is not used only for unmoderated instances. Lemmygrad is aggressively moderated and defederated from most instances because the owners find the political views expressed there distasteful, and that's not the only one.
It just introduces so much personal bias into the fediverse, where individuals who don't like Thing A defederates from instances that allow Thing A, cutting their entire instance off from it. Again, yes, you can join other instances, but that quickly gets annoying trying to find another instance that aligns with your Thing A-positive or neutral views. This is what I'm referring to when I say that it will kill the momentum- users getting frustrated and having to make multiple accounts to essentially dodge a completely unjustified ban (assuming they weren't the ones doing the Bad Thing that caused the defederation) will lead to burnout and lost user retention.
As I also said, there will certainly be an impulse to say "good riddance, we don't need them anyway", but I think it'll lead to more problems. The fediverse has existed as a small pocket of internet for a while. However, things don't shrink as easily as they grow. If lemmy continues to get time and money and resources poured into its development for an ever-shrinking userbase, it won't just go back to how it was. Growth is hard to undo.
Frankly, good riddance we don't need people who won't stick around because bad instances are defederated. That's not a problem that needs to be solved, it's a feature.
I know a lot of people agree with you. I'm just not one of them. I prefer a more open internet is all, where individuals are responsible for their own personal "defederations", and don't lose access to vast portions of the fediverse due to someone else's actions and decisions unless they go out of their way to keep instance hopping.
You should then pay to create the site you want then as you’re in a small minority. That’s how the free market works. Your comments do seriously come across as concern trolling at this point.
Trust me, I would if I could. It's a shame that I can't.
BS, what you're saying has nothing to do with an "open internet". Stop co-opting terms, a fediverse instance defederating isn't a closed internet. The other instance still exists and you can still access it if you want to.
There are laws you know, claiming a fediverse server should work outside the law is idiotic and not at all principled.
having a 'principled objection' to others telling you that you can't see child sexual abuse tapes is very admirable and sounds much better
i doubt its going to change anything though, since 'principled objection' to laws doesnt actually stop said laws from applying to you, or the site youre using
I feel like the fact that you still consider Reddit an option invalidates your entire point.
You don't get to decide what others allow on their instances. It's regular people hosting these servers and these same people having to moderate and manage those instances. They are the ones who face backlash and the repercussions for what's posted on their servers so if they choose to make the decision to defederate to protect the instance community as a whole then that's their choice. Long story short, tough shit. Don't like things being defederated, create an account on a different server. Or better yet, create your own server than you can choose who you do or don't federated with and what happens on that server can be your own responsibility.
I think this issue could be addressed on the front end.
The reason you would want a server that is federated with everything is so you can access all content at once instead of switching between accounts on different instances. If you could log into multiple instances at once with a single username and see content from both in the same feed it wouldn't matter if they are defederated. I think this federation thing ought to be, as far as possible, transparent to the end user.
The way this currently works feels odd to me - it doesn't really behave like a decentralised Reddit, because your account is tied to a specific instance and the content you see depends on which instance you pick. It feels like an awkward middle ground between a centralized service like Reddit and just having a completely separate forum site for each community.
Whaa whaa whaa..
Bullshit, you chose a server that invites illegal content on purpose. It was entirely within your control to NOT choose such a server.
Feddit.nl rules explicitly state no illegal content, so it seems to be not so much inviting illegal content as a failure to moderate account creation and post content, like OP alluded to.
Dunno why you're being downvoted. Defederation feels like a gung-ho way of handling content moderation issues that centralized platforms would be able to directly solve.
It is a gung-ho way, but I understand why I'm being downvoted. People hear "I want to have the ability to view anything" or "I don't like being told what I can or cannot view on the internet" as "I want to view CSAM" or "I am actually a Nazi", which should result in an emotional reaction. It's just not what I'm saying.
The problem is that the fediverse is an unmoderated mess, especially with how Lemmy and Mastodon are currently set up.
What's stopping griefers from setting up a brand new instance to spam existing communities with CP?
Of course you speaking bad about the fediverse = downvotes because you're mainly talking with fanboys.
Nothing! But how are you agreeing with PrinceHabib who's saying that should that happen it would be up to him to decide whether or not he wants to see that. Skipping over the fact that the illegal content would be hosted on several instances.
Show me one Lemmy admin that would disagree with your statement about Lemmy being an unmoderated mess? Every instance admin has been asking for better tools from the Lemmy devs for months.
If we could control instance level blocking on a user level it would be much more feasible.
In general sure, but not for problems like this. That wouldn't address the issue in the OP at all.
That won't change how we would handle instances with bad actors?
Absolutely agreed. I hope that becomes a feature soon, I know it is or was being worked on.
Just to play devil's advocate; it seems like maybe an instance with a very active mod team would be another criterion to add to your list.