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That all genocides are bad and if you deny Ukraine or the Uyghurs in China being genocides then you’re bad too.
Who believes a genocide could be good? That's ridiculous.
Go ask the people who love Mao over on ml
The term genocide implies the intent to eradicate a people. While Russia has definitely used genocidal language in the past, I wouldn't necessarily go as far as to claim that this is what they're actually intending to do. As far as I can tell, they just want to conquer the land and rule over the people there.
If you look at what they did in some of the territories they have now left, like Bucha, and at their abduction of Ukrainian children to then be russified, there are definitely genocidal aspects to the war.
The purpose of the whole war is not genocide, but within it are acts constituting genocide.
Stealing Ukrainian children and re-educating/raising them as Russians is definitely genocidal.
There is a meaningful difference between:
Under international law, genocide requires the specific intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. This is a very high bar. It’s not enough to show that terrible things are happening to a group. You need to show that the perpetrator’s goal is the destruction of the group.
Yes, and stealing their children and forcing them into your culture fits that description as it has several times in human history, including with Residential Schools in North America.
It's cultural eradication.
I'm honestly not sure if I would call the overarching conflict a genocide, but Russia is absolutely doing genocidal things with the intent of eradicating Ukrainian culture from the contested regions.
Do you deny that there is white genocide in South Africa? Or that Europeans are being genocided through "the great replacement"? Or is it possible genocide is a serious accusation that requires serious proof and questioning shoddy proof is not bad?
What makes questioning the holocaust (much like the genocide in Gaza) so heinous is the fact that it is so incredibly well documented that the only possibile explanation for questioning, downplaying or denial is pure hatred. On the other hand in Xinjiang, a tourist hub with millions of tourists every year, in an advanced country where almost everyone has smartphones there is essentially 0 evidence of genocide. Unless you believe the Chinese government has secretly developed teleportation or invisibility or some such nonsense that merits questioning that in all these years no reputable organisation has called what’s happening a genocide that there is no real proof and that the 2 biggest faces of the movement pushing for the classification are American intelligence linked Christian evangelical “on a mission from god to destroy china” (Adrian zenz) and a Guantanamo bay torturer (Rushan Abbas).
You're a fool. Europeans are deciding on theur own to not have kids due to a variety of socioeconomic factors, but those countries still need labor to keep things running so they use immigration to bring people in. That's all there is to it.
If European countries would actually address the issues leading to younger people deciding to not have kids, then there wouldn't be a problem.
But they won't do that, because then the economy wouldn't be build to cater exclusively to their version of the baby boomer generation.
That's the point I'm trying to make dumbass. Just because someone calls something genocide does not make it genocide if you don't have some serious proof to back it up.
I get it now. You're just a tankie/wumao that's salty about someone mentioning the Uyghur Genocide.
Fuck off
Or I am someone who thinks German evangelicals on missions from god to destroy countries and Guantanamo bay torturers are bad sources of information while first hand reports from delegations, the OIC and the UN are more reliable.
have you watched any vlogs from tourists in xinjiang?
I have been there personally
The skewers alone made it worth the train journey.
interesting. you didn't notice any severe (even by Chinese standards) surveillance while you were there? or any han-washing/disneyification of uyghur culture while you were there?
I'll clarify bc im not who you were talking to before, I'm not educated enough to say "yes it's definitely genocide" but I think they're trying to do away with the culture... which is very bad even if not genocide bad.
i think china are masters of controlling information (re: great firewall, govt criticism is illegal, communist party affiliation is required to rise in certain industries, etc) so while I understand why you don't trust the western sources that say it is genocide, I don't think the absence of proof is the smoking gun you think it is.
(i am not a Holocaust expert don't hang me if I'm wrong) i don't think evidence of the Holocaust was widely available while Nazi Germany was in power, the reason we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it happened is because they're not there to obfuscate the evidence anymore.
No. I also resent the implication of "by Chinese standards" when China has less CCTV per capita than the US and a far less globally pervasive intelligence apparatus than the CIA, NSA or Five eyes.
What do you mean by this?
No. It was just a living working city with Turkic architecture, different cuisine, and people living their lives as they do in all cities.
Maybe, but if that were true, I’d expect to see any hallmarks of ethnic cleansing or cultural erasure: banning language, banning customs, deportations, forced removal, and so on. That simply does not appear to be happening.
It’s an IP/domain/protocol blacklist that is easily bypassed by everyone through easy access to VPNs as it's meant to keep certain platforms out (for good reason, just look at how America used their monopoly on social media platforms in SE Asia to push antivax nonsense during Covid or how Facebook facilitated the Rohingya genicide) not keep us in.
Categorically untrue. The entire point of local party offices and the 12345 hotline is to provide channels for complaints and criticism.
State ownership of important industries is good actually.
“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Thank you for that, George Bush. Did you ever find those WMDs?
Deciding to abandon any evidentiary standard because of vibes about a country, especially when those vibes have been shaped by a hostile media apparatus, is bad.
I think it’s important to distinguish between the two situations. The Holocaust was largely carried out in occupied territories to the east, where tourists, journalists, and unauthorized visitors had no access. It also happened in a period when the world was far less connected than it is now.
Today, most people carry a high-quality audio/video recorder and publishing device in their pocket, and satellite imagery is far more advanced. Xinjiang also receives millions of visitors a year. Given all of that, it seems unreasonable to claim there is some secret genocide going on when the evidence presented mostly points to abuses during the crackdown on ETIM. And before that gets twisted: yes, those abuses are still bad. But they are much closer to the treatment of marginalized communities by states like the US than they are to anything remotely comparable to genocide.
Modern genocides are effectively impossible to hide. Look at Rwanda, or more recently Gaza: even with Gaza heavily destroyed and access severely restricted, there are still hundreds of hours of footage and documentation.
Persecution of Uyghurs in China
I could dive deep on the issues of sourcing for this article (like the very first source being Guantanamo Bay torturer and US intelligence asset Rushan Abbas) but I think a more interesting question is why this article's title was changed from genocide of to persecution of? Why does the OIC say there is no genocide? Why does the UN refuse to classify the situation as a genocide?
The better question is why do people deny genocides?
So you think there is white genocide in south Africa and white people are being genocide in Europe through the great replacement? Or is it possible that questioning things not backed by conclusive evidence is not bad but in fact the good and normal thing to do?
Your whatsboutism is transparent and looks foolish.
It's not whataboutism. If simply calling something a genocide makes questioning the basis of the claim evil then it only makes sense you believe all accusations. You must clearly stand with white South Africans and white Americans and Europeans against their genocides.
Or maybe questioning claims that are not backed by conclusive evidence is ok.
I’ve provided a lot of evidence that a lot of other people, countries and organizations back up.
My sources will never be good enough for you because you are a genocide denier.
Or your source is a Wikipedia article that sites Rushan fucking Abbas and articles who then in turn site Adrian Zenz. If someone sites Elon Musk to tell you there is white genocide in South Africa and "the great replacement is real" would you believe them? Also your source does not claim there is a genocide, it makes claims of abuses (which there definitely were but this articles exaggeration of events would be hilarious if it wasn't such a grim topic). So again we're back to claims without conclusive evidence that it's only right to be sceptical of. The OIC and the UN both seem to agree there is no genocide.
You’re like a person looking for definite proof of the holocaust using only official German sources before liberation.
Now you're retreating to Russell's teapot. "There's no proof that meets any sort of evidentiary standard (Hence why reports from first-hand delegations to Xinjiang from Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Thailand, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, the World Bank, and even the fucking UN say it's not a genocide) but you just have to believe it". Nonsense.
I’ve provided a lot of evidence that a lot of other people, countries and organizations back up.
My sources will never be good enough for you because you are a genocide denier.
And we're again back to a source that itself doesn't even claim genocide that sites such amazing people as Guantanamo bay torturer and Amerikan intelligence asset Rushan Abbas and a fee more than all site German evangelical on a self proclaimed "mission from god to destroy China" Adrian Zenz. And honestly I'm just more willing to take the OIC, UN and the first hand delegations at their word that there isn't a genocide than you (especially considering you yourself are a genocide denier).
Which ones am I denying?
The genocide of Russians by Ukrainians. You also keep dodging White genocide in South Africa and the genocide of white people across America and Europe. All of these have been called genocide so to call any of these into question is by your logic to be a genocide denier.
That’s because that’s transparent whataboutisms and they look foolish.
We’ve been over this.
It's not though? Either it's ok to question all claims without conclusive evidence or you must accept them all.
That’s a false dichotomy.
No it's called being consistent. I understand you prefer being a hypocrite but personally I prefer holding consistent values. If something lacks conclusive evidence it is perfectly reasonable to be sceptical and question it.
You’re presenting two extreme views when in actuality you can look at the evidence and the people making the claims and know there’s way more choices then those two options you presented so it’s a false dichotomy.
Anyways since you’ve proven my point I think this conversation is done.
Yes you can look at evidence and have questions exactly. Questioning things not backed by conclusive evidence is the reasonable normal thing to do. Thank you for agreeing even if by accident.
I’m not agreeing with you I think your argument is flimsy and foolish.
But you did. You agreed that you can look at the evidence and who's saying it and draw your own conclusions. This supports what I've been saying the whole time. You are the one who kept saying any questioning of events labelled genocide is genocide denial.
You’re denying genocide and using Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes as proof.
I’m using international organizations and countries as mine yet you claim they are the same.
Literally when did I do that? Just to be clear I don't think there is white genocide going on in either South Africa or Europe my whole point is your logic of calling all questioning of claims lacking conclusive evidence as genocide denial is idiotic as it means you must accept these also
Sorry I didn't realise Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Thailand, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, the World Bank, and the UN weren't international groups worthy of listening to.
https://www.csce.gov/briefings/russias-genocide-in-ukraine-2/