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[-] NoTagBacks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 days ago

I think most of my sarcasm didn't translate well here. I should know better, this being the internet/text and all. I'll try to be more clear about my stance because I don't think we fundamentally disagree, but I suspect there may be a point or two we may want to make more granular.

As a response to your first paragraph(sorry, on mobile), yes, I legitimately have met many people irl who use this rhetoric, though, as you point out, it's not an epidemic, nor do I think there are many "true believers", so-to-speak, as much as it's casual, unthinking discrimination. Admittedly, they skew young and college age and will typically correct course if explicitly addressed. Those that double down are usually the youngest and/or self-described assholes.

As for the patriarchy, yeah, that's the primary problem. My point is to primarily focus on the system(the patriarchy) as the problem, rather than people (men). After all, many women will perpetuate and even sometimes benefit from the patriarchy. Hence my contention with the term "mansplaining", as I attempted to point out this takes the focus away from the problem of the optics of women's competence and focuses on men specifically looking down on women. It's a crude and unhelpful pop-philosophy term that admittedly was deliberately used precisely because it's an emotionally defended term of pop-feminist philosophy and is a good illustration of the gulf between pop-philosophy and where actual academic philosophy stands. The problem isn't that a man is doubting someone else as the term would imply, but that a woman is seen as incapable of competence. The goal of women's liberation is co-opted by pointing the finger at men. I think the nefarious reason this term is so sticky is because it is indeed rooted in real life examples of the most common optical occurrence of perpetuating doubt about women's competence. And as the primary point of my rant illustrates, liberal rhetoric has crept into blaming/attacking men at the expense of the goal of gender liberation.

Now, I should be very clear about what my focus on the system rather than the people is/isn't doing; focus on the patriarchy as the problem rather than on men as the problem will indeed still call out the actions of men more often. However, what this primarily accomplishes as a direct criticism of pop-philosophy is separate the action from the actor to more accurately describe why the action is wrong as opposed to who is doing the wrong. Rather than trying to root out problematic groups of people, now we more accurately root out problematic behavior amongst all of us. Pop-philosophy would rather you just lazily say "ugh, men, amirite?"

The allegory of man vs bear in the woods isn't lost on me. I think my sarcasm got a bit too thick in the characterization of liberals missing the point with it. I think it's a great illustration of demonstrating reality that even when recognizing the problem is indeed patriarchy and not men, women would still be wise to pick the bear over the random man in the woods due to how the patriarchy manifests itself in social power dynamics. Most men probably are relatively safe, but the unsafe men pose enough of a risk that it's impossible to ignore. This is definitely a perspective all men should do their best to come to understand about the very real experiences of women. However, my point in bringing this particular allegory up was to show the unhinged nature of the careless use of inaccurate language by liberals and pop-philosophy in saying it's all men when confronted by those who didn't understand the point. In looking at my post, I see now that it was very unclear I moved on from the allegory completely at the end of that sentence.

My point at the end there was to illustrate how dumb the rhetoric of attacking men is when considering the assumed premise of the rhetoric is pro-feminist = anti-men. Now everyone is miserable in discrimination because of their gender and women's liberation dies in great irony. When in reality feminism does indeed include men's liberation from patriarchy. While men are the primary beneficiaries of patriarchy, they also face discrimination because of patriarchy as well, obviously to a much lesser degree than women.

So, to sum up my rant: the anti-men rhetoric becoming casually included in pop-philosophy is problematic because:

  1. It is fundamentally anti-feminist to be anti-men.
  2. Being anti-men once again distracts from the actual goal of gender liberation.
  3. Pushes away men who would otherwise be allies and even personally benefit from feminism.

And to reiterate the points you brought up that I do agree warrant emphasis that I originally failed to mention:

  1. This isn't an epidemic, nor are there really that many "true believers" in anti-men rhetoric. Loud online assholes are usually the larger offending demographic.
  2. While I have indeed heard this rhetoric unironically irl fairly often, the perpetrators were usually young, immature, and not usually full of conviction. I suspect most have/will grow out of it.
  3. Much of this rhetoric comes from Hollywood, the democratic party, and online trolls. I think naming these sources speaks enough about how much of this problem is real versus manufactured.
  4. And, admittedly, I think this is probably the point to come after me about: the problem is more manifest in how the rhetoric is currently creeping into casual conversation and unspoken premises rather than an actual intentional belief system. The problem is more rhetorical drift than ideological.

As for the patriarchy, yeah, that's the primary problem. My point is to primarily focus on the system(the patriarchy) as the problem, rather than people (men). After all, many women will perpetuate and even sometimes benefit from the patriarchy.

So this is really the source of my confusion when it comes to your response. How does one go about dismantling a hierarchical system without being critical towards the people who operate and reinforce the system?

To me that would be like saying yes chattle slavery is bad, but we shouldn't attack southern slave holders, after all plenty of northern cloth makers profit from cotton produced in the south.

separate the action from the actor to more accurately describe why the action is wrong as opposed to who is doing the wrong.

Sticking with my analogy, I don't think non slavers have to be explained that they are not at fault for the actions of slave holders. No one is claiming that labeling all male communication is mansplaining is okay.

inaccurate language by liberals and pop-philosophy in saying it's all men when confronted by those who didn't understand the point.

Again, i don't think we should be blaming the people making the allegory for the people who fail to realize the point. In most cases those who interpret it as "all men" are not making that claim in good faith.

Going back to my analogy, it would be like saying many white plantation owners also owned slaves, and having someone claim that I said all white people in the south were slavers.

to illustrate how dumb the rhetoric of attacking men is when considering the assumed premise of the rhetoric is pro-feminist = anti-men.

I think this argument only aids the people who are conflating criticism against men practicing misogyny as criticism against all men.

When dismantling a hierarchical system like the patriarchy, there will be people who operate and benefit from that system who feel attacked. While I agree that we shouldn't single out every male who vicariously benefits from the system(I am a male after all). I disagree that being critical towards individuals who actively work to reinforce that system is "anti-male". Hierarchical system are human constructs, and thus the individuals who perpetuate that construct are inseparable from them. You can't target the system without targeting the people who make and reinforce the system.

[-] NoTagBacks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 7 hours ago

Your analogy is wildly off base. That is objectively NOT analogous, nor does your accusation that I'm saying men shouldn't be "criticized" make any sense. Did you even actually read my comment(s)??? Slave holders as an identity is EXACTLY the problem of slavery as a system. You absolutely should go after slave holders as slave holders because them not changing their identity is the problem of the fucking system. You focus on the system of slavery, slave holders will be your first fucking target, holy shit. You know why you don't go after men if you focus on the system of patriarchy? Because it's not their identity as a man that perpetuates the patriarchy. That's the fucking point of focus on the system; you identify the actual problem instead of creating a new one. And since I apparently have to spell out this simple fucking concept; the problems of the system of patriarchy include things like enforcement of gender roles, either explicitly or casually as an unspoken expectation. Obviously this includes the oppression of women by confinement to a house, in a perptual forced state of submission to others, restrictions on their own independence and self-expression, their value based on their appearance, and way too many etc. Men will mostly be there perpetrators and men will usually be most egregious perpetrators. But men will not be the only perpetrators. Women who want to take away every woman's right to vote is someone who perpetuates and at least attempts to benefit from the patriarchy. Women who say a woman couldn't be a president because she'll nuke everyone as soon as it's "that time of the month" are part of the problem in perpetuating the system of patriarchy. This is why I emphasize that it is indeed the fucking system, not people. The people are fully capable of NOT being a part of the problem. Even the most misogynist man in existence is perfectly capable of succumbing to reason and the most basic form of moral decency by no longer being a misogynist. If he's no longer a misogynist and also no longer perpetuating the patriarchy, but he's still a man, then holy fucking shit, it wasn't because he was a man, now was it? It was precisely because of the fucking system that he was a problem.

However, if you attribute the problems of the system of patriarchy to men instead of the system, suddenly you start getting dumbfuck rhetoric like the post above. Now, instead of working on solutions to the problem of patriarchy with men, now the men are the target. The line is not really that fine or blurry, but pop-philosophy is stupid as fuck and sure doesn't see a difference between "fuck the patriarchy" and "fuck men", because pop-philosophy reasons like a toddler and is heavily funded by the rich fucks that want us to fight each other instead of turning on their greedy, destructive asses. You know why they fund it? Because people fucking buy it. And this rhetorical bullshit has been creeping into liberal rhetoric in the recent past as some team sports bullshit to differentiate themselves from the "others". And this has lead to pushing young men to the right in the alienating language of making the oppression of women a part of men's identity. Some of it is manufactured, sure, but a growing amount of it is not. It's the wrong message for these young men to take from this, yeah no shit, but that's what political tone does if you're that careless. It shouldn't work like that and we shouldn't have to soften the message to appeal to more people, hard agree, but welcome to fucking politics since fucking always.

So, to sum up:

  1. The system is the problem, not the people of the system.
  2. Blaming it on the system does NOT absolve anyone of wrongdoing. In fact, it more accurately points out who is doing the fuckups.
  3. The Patriarchy =/= Men
  4. Attacking men =/= feminism
  5. Casual sexism toward men as a growing part of liberal rhetoric has pushed young men toward right wing dickheads. This is a bad thing and everyone is wrong here.
  6. The remedy to point 5 is to consistently point out that the problem is patriarchy and everyone suffers for it. You don't attack the rhetoric, you make it irrelevant.

To correct your analogy, it's like blaming slavery on white people. It just obfuscates the actual root of the problem and creates a new fucking problem with a dumbshit red herring. You blame the system of slavery, not white people. The slave owners are mostly white? Cool, most of the people you'll be fighting will just so happen to be white. But it's the fucking system of slavery you want to abolish, not white people. Blame it on white people because it's white people things? Well shit, you're not nearly as bad as a fucking slaver, but does it make you feel good to use their logic?

this post was submitted on 27 May 2026
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