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submitted 1 day ago by schizoidman@lemmy.zip to c/world@quokk.au

cross-posted from : https://lemmy.zip/post/62708449

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[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 day ago

Oh wow, you're all the way into the organ harvesting stuff, that's deep in the propaganda lore.

You know Falun Gong claims that the reason China is supposedly harvesting their organs is because they claim their organs have mystical powers? Do you believe that too, or is China just doing it because of some generic comic book supervillain motivations?

[-] volore@scribe.disroot.org 1 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

riiiight, Wikipedia, which lists multiple different sources you're free to follow, is "propaganda" now. 🤡

Though, now I'm confused. If Wikipedia is "propaganda", now, why do you link to it in posts as a credible source?

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

Lmao. Did you actually read beyond the title of anything you linked?

A 2006 report by a U.S. congressional research staffer questioned the credibility of Kilgour-Matas's first report and stated that American officials in China were unable to verify organ harvesting allegations at a hospital in Shenyang.[12] Dissenters have cited the allegations' inconsistency with other data, rejection by lawyers representing Falun Gong practitioners, and implausibility of the numbers.[13]

A 2017 article by The Washington Post disputes that China secretly conducts 60,000 to 100,000 organ transplants per year.[13] Data compiled by Quintiles IMS show China's share of global demand for immunosuppressant drugs, which are necessary to prevent the bodies of patients from rejecting transplanted organs, was approximately in line with the proportion of global transplants China said it performed.[13] The journal also reports that lawyers who had represented Falun Gong practitioners rejected organ harvesting allegations and quotes a lawyer had "never heard of organs being taken from live prisoners" after defending 300 to 400 adepts of the movement.[13] According to health official Huang Jiefu, who has been working with an American surgeon to transform China's transplant practices, a total of 13,238 organ transplant operations were performed in 2016.[13] Xu Jiapeng, a Quintiles IMS account manager in Beijing, said it was "unthinkable" to operate a clandestine system that the data on immunosuppressants did not pick up.[13] An Australian surgeon and vocal critic of China's past transplant practices said it would not be plausible for the country to have more transplantations per year than the United States without that information leaking out.[13]

[-] volore@scribe.disroot.org 1 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Oh cool, now we both agree Wikipedia isn't propaganda again? Super, I'm glad we've established that. :D

I did in fact read it first. There are a total of four, count 'em, four paragraphs under the "Counterarguments" section (one of which isn't actually a counterargument but we'll get to that). That's almost the length of an acceptable fourth grade book report. I'm very proud, as well as at your restraint at only directly copy and pasting one of them (and the other from the article lead -- now I know the only two sections you actually bothered to read). Most of that entire section cites that same source, the Washington Post article.

I wonder how many subsections there are under the "Evidence" section?

... Hmmmm. Well, okay, okay, maybe they're all really really short and poorly sourced! How do they stack up against the refutations?

Ahhhh. Golly, dozens of sources, lots to read -- they've even got helpful diagrams for the slow tankies. Well, since you clearly went and picked out the quotes you liked best, now's my turn. :3

Bo Xilai was governor of Liaoning province, which researchers believe was a major center for organ harvesting.[who?] The World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong made phone calls to mid- and high-level officials with prior connections to Bo, posing as members of the Communist Party's discipline and inspection body that was building a case against him. They asked questions about the chain of command involved in procuring organs from prisoners, including Falun Gong practitioners. When asked about Bo's involvement in organ harvesting, one senior Politburo member reportedly told investigators that Standing Committee member and security chief Zhou Yongkang "is in charge of this specifically. He knows it."[72]

A city-level official in Liaoning province was asked by investigators what instructions Bo Xilai may have given on organ removal from Falun Gong prisoners. The official replied: "I was asked to take care of this task. Party central is actually taking care of this... Bo was involved quite positively. At that time we mainly talked about it during the meetings within the Standing Committee."[verification needed] The official ended the call after realizing that he had not confirmed the caller's identity.[72]

Emphasis mine.

And oh, hey, the very next paragraph after the one you quoted about that Washington Post article, that's a good one too.

Kilgour, Matas, Gutmann, and experts in fields such as medicine wrote to the Post saying that drug prices can be 2.5 to 4 times cheaper in China than in the U.S., making sales data an unreliable proxy for dosage, and that a country's global share of immunosuppressant sales does not need to match its share of transplantations, citing Japan and the U.S. as counterexamples.[144] Their letter also states that most Chinese hospitals have an unofficial pharmacy whose "significant" amount of business data are not included in IMS figures.[144]

"If you don’t believe that, there’s multiple different sources for you to follow."

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Oh cool, now we both agree Wikipedia isn’t propaganda again? Super, I’m glad we’ve established that. :D

No, actually, I never said that. You seem to be very confused about how sources work on a fundamental level.

If a king commissions a history book that heaps praise on himself, but that book also talks about the king's ugly, crooked nose, then even if everything else in the book is unreliable propaganda, we can reasonably treat the part about the nose as credible, because it goes against the work's overall bias, meaning that the only reason for its inclusion would be if it were true. It would be the same way if a source biased towards China admitted to things that reflect negatively on China. That is why I can cite Wikipedia or other Western sources while still considering it biased. Another reason is that you presented as a source which means you accept it as a source. I don't have to accept it as a source in order to point out that it contradicts your position. If you cited Infowars and that source contradicted the claims you were making, I would be well within my rights to point out the contradictions, regardless of the fact that I obviously don't consider it a reliable source.

There are a total of four, count 'em, four paragraphs under the “Counterarguments” section. That’s almost the length of an acceptable third grade book report

So much of your comment is just talking about length as if that had any relevance whatsoever. I assure you that I can find extremely long sources peddling all sorts of nonsense conspiracy theories. You don't seem to understand how to evaluate sources at all.

The World Organization to Investigate the Persecution of Falun Gong

That sounds like a reliable, unbiased source.

This is no different than when US conservatives go into like a Planned Parenthood with a secret camera and cut the footage up and take things out of context to make it look bad.

When asked about Bo’s involvement in organ harvesting, one senior Politburo member reportedly told investigators that Standing Committee member and security chief Zhou Yongkang “is in charge of this specifically. He knows it.”[72]

A city-level official in Liaoning province was asked by investigators what instructions Bo Xilai may have given on organ removal from Falun Gong prisoners. The official replied: “I was asked to take care of this task. Party central is actually taking care of this…"

This is your smoking gun? Lmao.

There are legal avenues for organ donation in every (afaik) country in the world. They called up two people who are not involved in that field and don't know all the details and they were tricked into directing them to other officials who would know more. Wow, amazing.

Kilgour, Matas, Gutmann, and experts in fields such as medicine wrote to the Post saying that drug prices can be 2.5 to 4 times cheaper in China than in the U.S., making sales data an unreliable proxy for dosage, and that a country’s global share of immunosuppressant sales does not need to match its share of transplantations, citing Japan and the U.S. as counterexamples.[144] Their letter also states that most Chinese hospitals have an unofficial pharmacy whose “significant” amount of business data are not included in IMS figures.[144]

Sorry, let me clarify something. Are you trying to argue that it's theoretically possible that China could be engaged in organ harvesting, or are you claiming that there's actual evidence of it, that it's a proven thing? Because this is arguing that it may be theoretically possible, despite evidence pointing in the direction of it being impossible.

If you want to say that it's theoretically possible China may be involved in organ harvesting, then I will return to what I said originally, that I'm sure the China in your head is doing all sorts of horrible nasty stuff, and I fully condemn imaginary China, which has nothing to do with the China that actually exists.

[-] volore@scribe.disroot.org 1 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

No, actually, I never said that.

actually you did, where I posted a link to a wikipedia article (several actually but who's counting, this is the one you wanted to bitch about) and you responded by dismissing it altogether as "deep propaganda lore". Was all of fourteen hours ago.

Since you're clearly having trouble keeping up -- or, let's be honest, willingly choose not to -- I'm gonna stop reading right there at your "helpful explanation" about how sources work. I got better shit to do than listen to tankies trying (and failing, badly) at condescending to me; and it's been funny watching you flail, but I'm bored now. You're boring me now. Better luck next time!

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 2 points 13 hours ago
[-] volore@scribe.disroot.org 1 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

actually I just like jabbing tankies who post shitty bait with a stick and then giving them the argument equivalent of a ruined orgasm. It's nice to know they're tilted over it enough to ask you to come give moral support after getting blocked lmao

Are you here to get tilted too?

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 2 points 12 hours ago

actually I just like jabbing tankies who post shitty bait with a stick and then giving them the argument equivalent of a ruined orgasm.

I can assure you that running off with your tail between your legs while trying to act smug does not ruin anything for me lol.

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 2 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Yeah everything is a conspiracy and we're all coordinating with each other on secret chatrooms, I didn't just happen to see your argument in All and get mad that you're acting like a child.

[-] volore@scribe.disroot.org 1 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

You know, good point, I'm sure none of you ever talk to each other or have friends, as you all seem to vastly prefer infecting other communities and instances to spread Chinese propaganda far and wide. It's a shame I can't block every one of your comments all at once, just the posts with the instance block; but I'll get there one tankie at a time if I have to. You make #2 for the day!

[-] queermunist@lemmy.ml 2 points 12 hours ago

Heaven forbid you ever interact with anyone you disagree with.

Again, really hoping you're young.

[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 1 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

actually you did, where I posted a link to a wikipedia article (several actually but who’s counting, this is the one you wanted to removed about) and you responded by dismissing it as “deep propaganda lore”

I'm well aware. What I never said was the part where you claimed "we both agree Wikipedia isn’t propaganda again?"

I’m gonna stop reading right there at your “helpful explanation” about how sources work. I got better shit to do than listen to tankies

You either should have, or should listen to your teachers in high school. Do they let you cite Wikipedia as a source? Maybe they're "tankies" too!

I’m bored now. You’re boring me now. Better luck next time!

Convenient that you suddenly "got bored" right as your claims fell apart.

this post was submitted on 17 Apr 2026
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