If we can't be bothered to vote in the primaries, wjy would anyone believe us that a progressive candidate would somehow lure millions more to vote?
As I know the comments will be, uhhh, fun, I've turned off reply notifications.
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Progressive here. I vote in every primary and try to rally support for the most progressive in my coalition. Come November, I vote against fascists which means voting for Democrats because they're obviously better in every way.
If you don't vote or vote third party, congratulations, it means you were duped by right-wing propaganda or don't understand how our election system works and the inevitable binary outcome that comes with FPTP and whole you didn't give fascists +2, you gave them +1.
This.
Not voting or voting for a third party hands a win to people you don't want winning. The system is not fair, at all -- but that doesn't mean we should operate in a way we know will lead to a bad outcome. We have plenty of evidence that third parties in the US don't really make a dent, but they do sway elections (and generally not how you want). The rest is idealism.
It's also a good example of why single-issue voting means you'll almost always get more collateral damage, even if you get representation you want on that specific issue.
Trouble is, sometimes voting for either of the two major parties hands a vote to people whom you don't want winning, and you know it will lead to a bad outcome: The march toward some flavor of authoritarianism has been obvious for decades. One major party welcomes it, and the other major party doesn't not welcome it. While the system isn't fair, neither is life, and sometimes the system itself is so flawed that it falls apart even if you play by its unfair rules.
So what was the plan? Democrats win every election forever and ever, amen? The party was cooperating with the Republicans, actively or passively, to put the pieces of an authoritarian system into place. Was that supposed to be fine because Democrats would always be in control of the machinery of repression? Despite the long history of U.S. voters ping-ponging between parties?
It is really sad you think you are right
You should try arguments next time
I am not prepared for the olympics level mental gymnastics necessary to explain participating in the US election system.
Don't worry. We know.
Em dash, AI profile pic... Hmmm...
Looks like a double dash -- to me, not M
Fair enough, I assumed LLMs used the markdown double dash for their em dash, mixed with the AI profile pic, and general bad taste of a slop comment, I judged too quickly.
There are (rare though they may be) people like me who actually know the ALT code for em-dash by heart and have used it for years long before AI. Thanks to people now just assuming I've switched to double-dashes mostly.
The compose key exists, too (and wincompose for Windows users) — makes it easy to use. And all sorts of other symbols like ¿Por qué no los dos? and I can uſe the old long-'s' character eaſily… (and that's a real ellipsis)
And Mac has alt - for –, and shift alt - for —. We use the English (Macintosh) keyboard layout on our Linux boxen, so we've got that too!
Holy shit... I had no clue that wincompose exists. For years, I've wanted exactly this. I'm so glad that someone had the same idea, skill, and time to create this. Thank you for sharing!
<3 <3 <3 The only symbol I've wanted that apparently doesn't have a sequence is for pi. And I know you can add sequences in Linux, but haven't been bothered to figure out if/how with wincompose. heh.
Have fun! Oh, and one bit that took me a long time to find but I use all the time; ① - numbers in circles, a rare three-character sequence - parentheses surrounding a number i.e.
(1):) (numbers ① through ㊿ exist)Nice. Thanks!
You're welcome to respond to the "slop comment" if you can actually come up with something substantive. Otherwise, it's not a good look.
I've gotten more down votes saying exactly this.
In 2020 Biden won with 81.3 million votes. In 2024 Trump won with 77.3 million votes. All we had to do to avoid the mess we are in is turn out with the same "enthusiasm" we had for Biden in 2020.
It's the job of a politician to generate that enthusiasm.
I would argue that it is the civic duty of a citizen to vote. Enthusiasm is irrelevant.
We simply know that people are more likely to vote when they are enthusiastic. You can either keep telling people "do better" and keep losing, or you can accept human nature and use it to your advantage by running a candidate that people actually want.
People should have been planty enthusiastic to get anyone but Trump as President, but that shows how strong the misinformation machine is.
Personally I've always favored a system like Australia where voting is compulsory and punished with a small fine. That filters out the principled from the merely lazy.
No, it simply shows that the Dem strategy of "putting up a turd that doesn't stink quite as bad as the other one" isn't enough to actually win when it matters.
We are back to the original point that people are so determined to blame Democrats that they sabotage their own efforts to get something better.
Ah, I see, we are back to absolving Democrats of any agency or responsibility.
Why is it Democrats responsibility to get progressives to vote in primaries? If you don't vote, politicians don't care about your opinions.
And if you don't speak to voters, voters don't care about politicians. Guess which one matters more?
Let's not act like the Democratic primary process has been going well for the last elections - look how they treated Bernie, and there wasn't even a primary for Harris - after she was quite unpopular in the previous primaries!
That's not to mention that the Biden campaign before 2020 gave many signals that he'd be a one-term president. They said "we have to rally to defeat Trump", and then just didn't care to build up an alternative to Biden since they knew people would have to rally behind whoever they put up, since anyone would be better than Trump!
Yes, but they do that only when they want you to vote. Imagine making it compulsory to vote, and then also suppressing your ability to vote... Then the fine is just a new tax and you still don't get to vote.
I fucking loathe this mindset. I mean I hate it with such a passion. Cuz all you're saying is you don't care if you lose. You don't care if the worst happens to all of us you'd rather not change your ways. Cause guess what? You're wrong.
You can say that until the cows come home but people turn out to vote when they're spoken to and engaged. Thinking anything else means you're okay with losing. And I resent the fuck out of my life being put in jeopardy because some of you are okay with losing.
I agree with this, but that doesn't convince people to actually turn out and vote.
A politician needs to be able to generate enthusiasm to get people to vote
You're not wrong, but they sure didn't make it easy.
I agree with this strategy but I think you have to also concede that anti-electoralists have some good arguments too. Since voting is relatively low investment, my personal view is that it's best to pursue a variety of strategies. But for the vast majority of Americans for whom voting is their only political activity, I would challenge them to figure out what the next step is in becoming a more effective political actor. Frankly, there are a variety of actions a person can take that are way more impactful than voting. And this moment demands more from us than passive participation.
Stockholm syndrome at its finest.
Americans look at the most broken system ever, and you'd think they would come up with ways of fixing it, but instead, they double down on this logic of "lesser evil", and fool themselves into believing that's "good".
It is not.
Choosing the lesser evil means the end result is still evil, it just takes longer.
But sure, disregard all evidence waves arms around that shows the current system is beyond redemption, and line up for the national pastime of "Pick Your Pedo" as a good little boy.
Hit me with those downvotes, I'll ping you when the next presidential election comes around to ask you how your way's been working out.
And how does non-participation in any way fix the system?
You absolutely can participate in the broken system to prevent the greater evil AND at the same time do your utmost to change and fix it, in order to create better choices.
Not participating means you can try your utmost to change the system, in order to create better choices. But in the meantime you throw vulnerable people under the bus of the greater evil for your protest. Congratulations.
"Non-participation" does not mean inaction, just in case it needs to be said.
You cannot fix the system. If the second time Trump got to power didn't open your eyes, when are you going to call it? When they start undermining trust in elections? Pressure on officials to overturn results? Attacks on the press? Invoking crises to expand executive authority? Politicization of law enforcement? Purging civil servants not loyal to the ruling party? Undermining courts or ignoring judicial rulings? Scapegoating minority groups?
We've seen this script before, yet you still think it's best to play along.
The vulnerable have been exploited for greed and profit for decades now by the billionaires. That noose has never stopped tightening, and you're trying to argue that we may inadvertently scald them when we burn the rope that's strangling them.
What else would you propose they do?
Because doing nothing only helps fascists. And voting third party is basically the same as doing nothing.
Why ask me? Go ask Minnesota.
I think this American is well aware how broken the system is and doesn't support it. They're just trying their best to work with the situation they are given.
Careful, people who have never met you will now tell you that you're not actually a progressive, but a dirty liberal
This. And if one of the lesser progressive or AIPAC funded candidates get the nomination, I will speak out against their problematic policy positions and try to get them to move away from these views right up until election day (at which time I will go into the voting booth, hold my nose, suppress my gag reflex, and vote for whoever the D choice is (who will always be better than the R choice, at least at the state and national level).
In 2000, Nader won 1.64% of the popular vote in Florida.
If less than 1% of the Nader voters had voted for Gore instead, Gore would have won Florida, become president, and who knows what timeline we'd be living in today.
If your favorite candidate is polling in single digits ahead of election day, maybe... just maybe... you should consider which of the actually viable candidates you want to win and vote accordingly.
If you vote Democrat just because they were better than Conservatives, congratulations, it means you were duped by the establishment or don’t understand how your election system works and the inevitable binary outcome that comes with always doing the same shit over and over again and believing something will somehow change eventually.
There are literal fascists in office, in part because Dunning-Kruger told you not voting or voting for a no-chance candidate was a good idea.
Or maybe you think posting online is "action" or "protest". In case you haven't noticed, it does jack shit.
I thankfully don't live in US and have been financially protesting USA since the 2nd time Trump was elected. I also don't need your help in learning what protesting means as I have breathed in enough tear gas to learn that lesson myself.
Sure, go vote Democrat. I am sure its their turn to rule anyways so that the capitalis war between the monarchs and the oligarchs can balance itself once again. I am sure they will take care of Trump (or whoever their next chosen prophet is) THIS TIME. They were so helpful last time they were elected doing jack shit for 4 fucking years. Then losing to a fascist clown just after 1 term. You live in this fantasy that these incompetent rich bastards will somehow save you, and it won't be the same shit all over again in another 4 years.
Keep showing Democrats that no matter how disconnected they are from the American public, you will keep voting for them. Why? Because, it is the most important election in the history of America. As if you weren't saying the same shit for however many years now, and as if you won't say the same shit in the future. It will never be time to vote for 3rd parties. God forbid some people have other beliefs then "left of far right" party and want to show their support for candidates who represent themselves better. God forbid you might send them a message and ask for meaningful change by actually showing them that you do not support them.
The US has a two-party system. Period. That will not change anytime soon, if ever. And that presents unique challenges that countries with different systems do not have.
I'm not entirely sure from your rebuttal that you actually understand this fact.
I don't disagree that things are fucked up, and I don't disagree that the Dems are a bad party which by and large do not support their constituents. But let me be clear: there is no path outside of voting Democrat that has any chance of success of changing anything in the US. The only path forward is voting for the single opposition party.
What you're saying is: it won't matter anyway. Maybe you're right. I'm also not disagreeing there. But we know from evidence that there is no other option which has any chance. And if the whole house of cards falls -- as it is likely to do -- I'd certainly rather tell my children that I did what I could based on an evidential position, regardless of how futile it may have ended up being.
What I won't do is pretend that a third party vote will help. I won't pretend that not voting will help. Those are the farcical ideas of a naïve idealist.
Its such an American response to be like "you guys don't understand our system" thinking you are so special. I have lived in a multi party system that had the same party winning for 26 years. My fascist dictator was ruling over me way before Trump even knew what politics was. And you know what? We have the exact same arguments about wasting votes if you do not vote for the main opposition party.
I am not saying it does not matter. I am saying that you (and people like you) can't keep doing the same thing and expect shit to change, and then put down people who are actually trying something different for once. You can't keep supporting the status quo and then act all high and mighty because other people are actually sick of watching rich bureaucrats fight over who gets the bigger slice of the pie.
So what's the plan? Are you hoping the Democrats will win every single election until the end of time? Talk about being naive.
Not voting or voting third party is not new. It's not "for once". It has been tried again and again in the US, and again and again, the outcomes were as expected: whichever candidate between the two main parties loses more votes to the tactic, loses the election.
Stop pretending it's novel. It isn't, and it always fails. There is nothing virtuous about being shown evidence and denying it. That's called stupidity.
Oh its not new? Tell me, when was the last time that enough of you voted independent /3rd party to win the elections? Oh, it never happened? An independent winning seems like a new thing to me then, for once. "Oh but it's not realistic for independents to win, there will be never enough people voting for them", well then how the fuck do you expect them to win if you do not vote for them, because no one will vote for them. Do you not see this infinite loop that only seem to work out for Democrats and Republicans? Do you not see how they both want to keep things this way and therefore will never change anything meaningful?
You also seem to forget that a 3rd party DID BEAT a US major party before, coming 2nd place. Maybe not good enough for a win, but apparently its possible to beat a major party, when enough people vote for you. Funny how that works out.
You guys keep calling people traitors for voting differently than you, you keep putting not voting and voting for independents in the same bucket. You keep calling people naive and idealist, you keep belittling people's convictions pretending to be a progressive. You say its not realistic to vote outside of Democrats (or Republicans) while ignoring the fact that our reality fucking us all anyways. Go keep being complicit in the system that allowed all this to happen if that's whats going to keep your conscience clean. Or maybe you are just happy as long as the republicans don't win, but then just accept the fact that you are just trying to do the bidding of your democrat daddies instead of pretending to not be happy with them either. I guarantee you will have more success trying to convince people.