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bLuEmAGa
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 23 Jan 2025
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I would be curious to see the numbers but I don't think the pro Palestine protest voters cost the Democrats the election. It definitely didn't help, but the Dems shat the bed in way more ways than just the Palestine situation.
Pro-Palestine protest votes didn't cost the Dems the election, but that a single group was not the deciding factor in a contest does not absolve them of responsibility. IE single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump's victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.
And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.
Because the effect is the same. Sorry, again, you might finally experience what others have been.
Well said. I really wish people understood that blame can be shared because they really don't seem to understand that and haven't since November.
They understand. They just don't want the blame and want to shift the responsibility for their irresponsible actions to anyone but themselves.
The dimbass games are posts like this instead of arguing for civil disruption and actions beyond elections. The protesters entire point was the election won't stop the genocide either way and further action is needed. Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that's already fucking over serves nothing. Unless you don't care about the issue in the first place and just want to be divisive about it.
And in the interest of furthering that point, they did everything they could to ensure a Democratic defeat. After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it's only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?
I'm not trying to bait them into any sort of argument. They're long past help. They're out here on Lemmy already praising Trump as the 'lesser evil' and insisting, even now, that there's no difference between Trump and Harris in terms of policy. Any argument with them is fucking pointless.
But I'm sorry that you don't like that I'm not giving them asspats for their 'principled' stand against American minorities over an issue that, even according to your summary of their motivations, they realized would not be changed by their attacks on the non-fascist candidate in the election.
Solidarity for me, but not for thee. It doesn't work out well.
Yes, this is why the smartest choice for LGBT folk in 1939 Poland would have been to welcome the Nazis, what with Poland being, at the time, far from LGBT-friendly. Because if there's not solidarity for everyone, there should be solidarity for no one.
/s, for all of those out there patting each other on the back over ensuring the fascist won the 2024 American presidential election.
Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was. Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It's an expected outcome. I voted for Harris but you don't see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
Oh, of course, when you can't achieve justice by voting, the correct decision is to ensure that voting results in the worst possible resolution. If you can't have justice, you must have as much injustice as possible. The only moral choice, of course. Basic accelerationism. Every good revolutionary knows this.
Like fucking what? The easy answer of "We're going to rise up and firebomb the rich any day now :''')" has been parroted by leftist wannabe suburban kids since the 70s; fuck's sake, I've heard the line myself for the past 20 fucking years. And what has happened? Where are these masses ready to rise up, since they find voting no longer radical enough for their tastes?
They aren't exchanging voting for more effective forms of change. They're just abandoning voting, and replacing it with jack fucking shit. They continue to sit on their fucking asses, like always. They don't organize en masse, they don't take up lone wolf violence. They do nothing, except play at purity games to jerk themselves off over how pure they are for abandoning as many minorities and oppressed groups as they can to literal fucking fascists. And you know who suffers for it?
All of us.
Fuck's sake.
Are you fucking kidding me? "Resistance is nonparticipation"?
What a fucking joke. Am I suppose to thank these twats for nonparticipating us into camps? Should I thank them for nonparticipating Ukraine into a potential genocide? What did nonparticipation gain us 'revolutionary' elements? Are we better poised to strike against the system now? No? We're actually worse off? Fucking fantastic.
"This system needs to go" does not need the addendum "Therefore, I'm going to make the system as terrible as possible".
You think I'm naive for telling you how things work? Believing that someone is going to remain participatory with a government that's genuinely greenlighting genocide like the Dems were because the opposition will... greenlight genocide... is delusional. If that's their primary moral issue, they are expected to not participate.
What's naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn't. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.
No, I think you're an apologist for literal fascist enablers. That's different than naive.
But hey, who needs to address any of the points raised? Certainly not you, it would seem.
Again - what alternative to electoralism is being proposed, here? There's fucking nothing, and no amount of suburban kids LARPing and high-fiving over how pure they are to their online buddies changes that. Sitting here and saying "Disinfecting the wound isn't enough, it needs to be sutured", and then proceeding to prevent anyone from disinfecting the wound and refusing to suture it (and, in this case, 2024, then proceeding to engage in 'nonparticipation', restraining the half-assed disinfectors from preventing a charlatan from rubbing his feces into the wound and proclaiming it healed) isn't some noble fucking stand. It's privileged shite from people who don't seriously think they'll be seeing any of the consequences of their actions.
Yeah, I could call you an apologist for genocide enablers if I wanted to spout inflammatory nonsense, but that was directly my point. Your entire argument about a lost election where you refuse to even consider that there are paths to resistance just because I haven't named things like disruptive protests, boycotts, and general organization is counterproductive. This entire screed is counterproductive. Calling me a fascist enabler apologist when I'm obviously a leftist is the exact stupid games I was referring to in the first place. This is the stupidity.
In what way are these alternatives to electoralism that have been strengthened by the victory of a literal fascist?
As I pointed out, we have been placed in a worse position for all forms of resistance by this loss - but you keep pretending that this is all part of some shift in resistance. It's fucking not. But hey, who cares? You aren't going to suffer, it's just disadvantaged folk like me. Millions of us will suffer, and many of us will die, but that's a sacrifice you're willing to justify for the high, high reward of (checks notes) giving asspats to each other online. Fucking great. Love that this is what my death is going to enable. Thanks, o noble 'leftists'.
This is very simple.
You are playing apologist for a group of people.
This group of people? Fascist enablers.
Thus, you are an apologist for fascist enablers.
Calling yourself a leftist is not some vaccine against that. Being a leftist is not some vaccine against that. A coat of red paint doesn't change your behavior.
You can be willfully ignorant of my point as much as it makes you feel self righteous, but don't for a second believe that this whining is accomplishing anything but ensuring that resistance remains divided and solidarity is impossible to achieve.
Oh, you mean like how we remained divided in the election and now I have a good chance over the next four years of dying due to a fascist government coming into power? Wow, it's cute how it's super important to maintain solidarity through disagreements and even the condemnation of millions of people to death and oppression, until, you know, one of us damn dirty impure folk is asking for it from the purity brigade. Fascism in America is an acceptable compromise for personal purity, but everyone else should put aside all their little quibbles to join hands with fascist enablers! 😊
You really do feel entitled to the support of those thrown under the bus after offering none to them. It's mind boggling.
Your utter inability to see the irony in saying this, especially to someone who actually has a very good chance of being killed by the fascist regime, and thus whose stakes involved in this are significantly greater than losing the ability to virtue signal for another country's genocide, is astounding.
By asking voters to not elect a fascist who is worse on their issue of choice than the non-fascist, I asked something ridiculous, apparently. I threw those voters I asked under the bus, and now they demand that I join hands with them in... doing nothing against the fascist regime, but giving them asspats for how 'principled' they are.
Fanfuckingtastic.
Yes I'm sure it lines up exactly with the imaginary image you've constructed of me in opposition to what I've said.
In response to your edit: I think I made it clear that I voted for Kamala but that it was expected that people would not vote to legitimize a government that was actively encouraging genocide, sometimes against their own people. That this somehow makes ME a hypocrite as a sticking point and not YOU for your fundamental inability to consider solidarity as a value is what makes this whole exchange laughable.
Oh cool, so now by them 'standing up' against the 'legitimization' of the government, we're in a better place to oppose it, right?
Oh, we aren't? We're actually worse off in terms of our ability to oppose the government? And disadvantaged demographics are going to suffer for the purity games of the privileged? Just like I said when you tried to pull this dogshit argument earlier in this argument?
Fucking lovely.
Solidarity is all-important when it's time to sabotage disadvantaged demographics, but it doesn't seem to matter one fucking whit when there's actually a chance to defend them. How curious.
Do I have to go back and quote you from the very start? You yourself admitted that, in your conception of their motivations, they regarded both outcomes of the election being genocide for Palestine; and so decided that it was, then, acceptable to embrace genocide in America in addition.
But hey, who needs introspection when you can play purity games while people like me get to go to the concentration camps, or be stripped of the already-meagre healthcare support available to the American poor? I can't wait until I'm vomiting blood again because I can't afford my medication. God, that was such a fun time. These next four years hold such promise of nostalgia in that sense.
But don't worry - you and the people you defend, I'm sure you've got nothing to worry about.
Haha it's people with flawed logic like you who deserve all the blame.
People who think like you should have to pass aptitude tests before they vote since they literally lined up behind an undemocratically appointed presidential candidate who had no concrete policy position except vibez and no fundamental changes from Biden.
People who couldn't see an obvious and humiliating loss coming for Harris and the democrats since Biden was the candidate are the only people responsible for this disaster.
The democrats could have given you options. They didn't because they don't care about you. They paraded around a half-dead 80 year old man as competent and made excuses for his ineptitude while telling everyone who said he wasn't fit that they were the ones who were actually crazy. Then they do a last minute bait and switch because he is literally falling apart before the world's eyes. They lied to you over and over and you are still carrying water for them. Does the history of the situation not matter now that Trump is president?
That's exactly why people are being called bluemaga.
Pretty much. They didn't offer anything their constituents wanted except for escape from DJT.
Unfortunately "We aren't Donald Trump" wasn't a winning strategy two of the three times they tried it.
I wonder what two terrible choices we are gonna have in 2028. Watch it be like fuckin Nancy Pelosi with an exoskeleton holding her up vs Dan Crenshaw who will have replaced his eye patch with a gun by then.
And, remember, it almost didn't even work the second time. Biden was the only candidate running for the nomination poised to lose to Trump and he was forced on us, seemingly as punishment for us demanding healthcare. They were willing to throw 2020 and would have lost had the unpredictable and extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 not occurred, along with Trump's absolutely bungled response. Covid-19 was the sole event that propelled Biden to the white house. And then he was exactly as ineffective and terrible as all leftists predicted and we got Trump back because of it.
I think both Trump and Biden handled COVID fucking terribly.
Really most nations handled it really fucking badly. I can forgive initial mistakes like not knowing how potent it was or how infectious it was, but once they knew the masks were pointless why the hell did they continue to push that crap everywhere.
It's absolutely a disgrace how the Dems handled it after an entire year of Trump trying to pretend it just didn't exist or was just a cold and using that in their campaign. Then when it became convenient for them they began to pretend it was over.
Politicians continuing to be fuckin useless yet again.
Well, whoever it is, it'll be them running against Trump, because he's already hinted at running for a third term, and he doesn't give a shit if things he does are illegal. And again, whoever it is the Dems pick, they'll be such shitheads that they'll lose the election against Trump again, for the third time. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever they learn their lesson in the next four years, because democrats are mentally incapable of even considering they could ever do anything wrong.
"two"
I'm not really sure what you were trying to get at with that comment. Are you implying that it wasn't two times that Donald Trump won?
Oh sorry. "Two" parties.
I question even that: Did they really? Where did the party articulate a cohesive plan (or hell, even just an enthusiastic promise) to counter the rise of oligarchy?
They promised an escape from him stylistically, but the majority of citizens who aren't political junkies weren't sick of it, because they weren't exposed to it, because they don't pay much attention to political news. What did they promise that the non-informed voter would notice in they're day-to-day life?
They promised that their oligarchs would be nicer to us. Which, to be fair, is probably true.
You'd think that would've been enough....
ok
It wouldn't have been a landslide, but it certainly assured the worst case scenario, MAGA sweeping all 3.
Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise, maybe the Democrats regained the house, maybe held onto the Senate. Maybe Trump would have lost, but Republicunts held onto Congress.
Who knows, but any of those would have been 10000x better than letting Drump get a hold of all 3.
Now everyone is screwed in some way.
What do you mean don't blame the brown people for White America's problems/identity crisis?
Fuckin what?
If you think white people have problems because of brown people, you're a stupid fuck. White people collect all the money that makes white people poor.
"It's pretty cool that MAGA Elon has so much money and my life sucks."