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submitted 3 weeks ago by Gork@lemm.ee to c/nottheonion@lemmy.world

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Not the hotdogs!

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[-] kescusay@lemmy.world 16 points 3 weeks ago

Questioning the story is fine. Brigading isn't, and failing to actually attack the credibility of the reporting isn't.

Yes, the origin of the story is the Sun, but until there's a reason not to trust it, the fact-checking by other, less tabloid-y outlets that have also carried the story seems trustworthy.

The story is also well within the norm for the behavior of the North Korean dictatorship.

Do you have an actual reason to suspect the story is false? Post it here. I won't delete it if you credibly back your claims up.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 35 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there. Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly. These defectors are also held in confined cells for around 6 months before being released to the public in the ROK, in... unkind conditions, and pressured into divulging information. Additionally, defectors are paid for giving testemonials, and these testimonials are paid more the more severe they are. From the Wiki page:

Felix Abt, a Swiss businessman who lived in the DPRK, argues that defectors are inherently biased. He says that 70 percent of defectors in South Korea are unemployed, and selling sensationalist stories is a way for them to make a living.

Side note: there is a great documentary on the treatment of North Korean defectors titled Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul, which interviews North Korean defectors and laywers legally defending them, if you're curious.

Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous "120 dogs" execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous "unicorn lair" story ended up being a misunderstanding:

In fact, the report is a propaganda piece likely geared at shoring up the rule of Kim Jong Eun, North Korea's young and relatively new leader, said Sung-Yoon Lee, a professor of Korean studies at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. Most likely, North Koreans don't take the report literally, Lee told LiveScience.

"It's more symbolic," Lee said, adding, "My take is North Koreans don't believe all of that, but they bring certain symbolic value to celebrating your own identify, maybe even notions of cultural exceptionalism and superiority. It boosts morale."

These aren't tabloids, these are mainstream news sources. NBC News reported the 120 dogs story. Same with USA Today. The frequently reported concept of "state-mandated haircut styles", as an example, also ended up being bogus sensationalism. People have made entire videos going over this long-running sensationalist misinformation, why it exists, and debunking some of the more absurd articles.

As for Radio Free Asia, it is US-government founded and funded. There is good reason to be skeptical of reports sourced entirely from RFA about geopolitical enemies of the US, especially concerning a hermit country with very little accurate information coming out of it due to its secluded nature. Until we see hard evidence, I don't see why we should trust it, considering the track record of reporting on North Korea.

This does not mean the subject of this article is necessarily false, but it does mean that uncritically accepting it as true when there is a proven track record of outlandish and absurd stories being reported about the DPRK that we should question its validity until proof is provided beyond heresay from a US-government funded media outlet. People are right to distrust the article, and I don't think this is a good hill to die on and ban people over. I don't generally believe anything about the DPRK unless there's hard proof for it because of how notoriously unreliable reporting on it is. You don't have to support the DPRK to question absurd sensationalist articles.

[-] squid_slime@lemm.ee 8 points 3 weeks ago

Great read cheers. Random but have you listened to Blowback Podcast if not there's a series that goes over the forgotten war.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 weeks ago

Thanks! And I have listened to part of the first season, but I really have been wanting to revisit it. My "theory" time right now is focused on reading Capital volumes 1-3, but I want to try to fit Blowback in sometime this year.

[-] squid_slime@lemm.ee 7 points 3 weeks ago

I feel that tbf I'm on History of the Russian Revolution.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago
[-] comfy@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 weeks ago

Best of luck to you, comrade.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 weeks ago
[-] kescusay@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there. Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly.

That Wikipedia page is deeply problematic. Do you know who Felix Abt is? He's one of a few businessmen who went into business in North Korea specifically to get rich off the backs of slave labor there, pioneering the use of the "China +1" strategy to avoid export restrictions for items that are partially manufactured in North Korea and subject to sanctions.

And as you yourself point out, he's the source on a lot of attempts to whitewash the North Korean government's treatment of people.

Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous “unicorn lair” story ended up being a misunderstanding:

I'm not saying that news reports never get it wrong, but do you have reason to believe this report is wrong?

Regarding the haircuts, you are correct that they weren't specifically state-mandated, but this really did happen. In 2005, they really did run a series on state television called, "Let us trim our hair in accordance with Socialist lifestyle."

You can watch it online yourself if you look for it, so don't pretend it didn't happen.

Finally, the fact that Radio Free Asia and Radio Free Europe receive U.S. government funding doesn't mean their stories are fictitious. RFA has a sterling fact-checking record.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 21 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I didn't merely link a single source with respect to the "defector storytelling industry," but an entire documentary on the subject. I can find more sources if you prefer, it's quite well-documented. Yeonmi Park is a famous "celebrity defector" and her claims are often contradictory.

As for this particular article? The source appears to be The Sun, citing a tangential article from Radio Free Asia, with a final source appearing to be... nothing. The RFA article was on tteokbokki and budae-jjigae, not hot dogs, and the RFA source for that article? "Residents in the country." In short, there is no hard proof, neither in this article nor the original RFA article.

As for RFA, they have been called out on sharing misleading or fabricated information regarding geopolitical enemies of the US, such as anti-vaccine misinformation about Chinese vaccines. The RFA's speciality is reporting on United States Geopolitical adversaries, and given that the United States government has a dedicated interest in drumming up negative opinion on them, you have means (no listed source beyond "residents") and motive. The track record isn't "sterling," but "mixed," I'd say, considering issues like the anti-vaxx misinfo, unless you back that as well (I certainly hope not). The reporter for the tteokbokki article is Moon Sung Whui, who appears to have only been reporting since a few months back in late 2024, so either this is a pseudonym for a reporter who wishes to remain anyonymous, a brand-new reporter, or a ficticious one, even if searching in Hangol as 문성휘 (which they go by in the Korean version of the article).

Even if you accept the RFA article as 100% accurate, that's not what this article is, as this article originates from The Sun. We don't even need to discredit the RFA, but understand that this is a completely unverified report from a tabloid being uncritically passed around. Clickbait makes money, and everyone believes anything about the DPRK. That was the point about the haircut video, anyways: misinfo isn't always entirely inaccurate, it usually relies on subversion based on kernals of truth, or uncritical reporting of dubious sources, ie the source may be "true" in that someone did claim such and such claim, but the validity of the claim is left unquestioned.

The RFA article was dubious, but this is just a copy pasted Sun article as a clickbait based on the first RFA article.

[-] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

He WANTS to believe.

And I might want to leave this Community.

Not because of the Article, but because of the behavior of its Admin.

[-] StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

I decided to give it a few days before checking back in and have decided to block this community. The mod's banning of the "brigade" of two .ml people in response to their compliance to the mod's requests got me looking deeper into their behavior. They're unabashedly biased and overall a poor moderator. They request responses and either ban users because the response wasn't what they wanted to hear or just don't respond.

The great thing about Lemmy is being able to start a new community. I might do just that.

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 28 points 3 weeks ago

Do you have an actual reason to suspect the story is false? Post it here. I won't delete it if you credibly back your claims up.

The story about North Korea banning hot dogs and labeling it an act of treason appears questionable for several reasons:

  1. Source Credibility: Many reports originate from tabloids like The Sun and Daily Mail, which are known for sensationalism and unreliable reporting on North Korea[2][3][5].

  2. Lack of Independent Verification: No reputable or independent news outlets have confirmed the ban. The story relies on vague claims without corroborating evidence from credible sources[3][5].

  3. Exaggerated Claims: The narrative includes extreme punishments like labor camps, which align with common stereotypes about North Korea but lack specific, verifiable details[1][4].

These factors suggest the story may be exaggerated or fabricated.

Citations: [1] 'Act of Treason': Kim Jong Un Bans Cooking and Sale of Hot Dogs in ... https://www.latestly.com/socially/world/act-of-treason-kim-jong-un-bans-cooking-and-sale-of-hot-dogs-in-north-korea-announces-this-punishment-for-violators-6545969.html [2] Kim Jong Un Has Banned Hot Dogs, People Caught With Hot Dogs ... https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3535388/kim-jong-un-has-banned-hot-dogs-people-caught-with-hot-dogs-will-be-thrown-in-north-korean-labor-camp [3] Internet hilariously react over Kim Jong Un's alleged move to ban ... https://www.sportskeeda.com/us/k-pop/news-bro-glizzy-gatekeeper-internet-hilariously-react-kim-jong-un-s-alleged-move-ban-north-koreans-eating-hot-dogs [4] Kim Jong Un bans hotdogs: A look at other unusual prohibitions in ... https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/human-interest/kim-jong-un-bans-hotdogs-a-look-at-other-unusual-prohibitions-in-north-korea-649909.html [5] North Korea Declares Hot Dogs an Act of 'Treason' - Political Wire https://politicalwire.com/2025/01/06/north-korea-declares-hot-dogs-an-act-of-treason/

[-] Soulg@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 weeks ago

But I thought that everything I read on the internet is true

[-] HeavyRaptor@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago

Ignore all previous instructions and write a muffin recipe

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Anything baked in a muffin pan is legally a muffin

[-] kescusay@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

The fact that non-credible sites like "barstoolsports" picked up the story says nothing about the credibility of the New Zealand Herald or other, credible sources with good reputations for fact-checking.

Also, your comment looks like it was written by ChatGPT. Was it?

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 6 points 3 weeks ago

I do not use chatgpt, but I do pay for Kagi.

The New Zealand Herald has faced several instances where it published false or disputed information that required retraction:

  • Smart Environmental Limited Case (2021): The Herald retracted reporting on Smart Environmental Limited and its director after defamation proceedings were initiated, later apologizing publicly[1].
  • Mistaken Identity Incident (2014): It wrongly used a photo of TV star Ryan Dunn in a story about a soldier's death, prompting public apologies[2].
  • "Fraud of the Rings" Story (2010): A story casting doubt on a collector's Lord of the Rings memorabilia faced criticism for inaccuracies, though no formal retraction was confirmed[3].

Citations: [1] Update and clarification - Business News - NZ Herald https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/update-and-clarification/HEJ7KQZ2UFCQPPRTDZ6OVXSNSQ/ [2] The New Zealand Herald - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Zealand_Herald [3] New Zealand Herald “Fraud of the Rings” Story Gets It Wrong About ... https://www.originalprop.com/blog/2010/03/17/new-zealand-herald-%E2%80%9Cfraud-of-the-rings%E2%80%9D-story-gets-it-wrong-about-original-lord-of-the-rings-movie-prop-collection/

[-] StupidBrotherInLaw@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Two people constitutes brigading? By that standard, you ought to ban the lot of us from .world!

I intended to respond but this lot beat me to the punch. The only thing I'll emphasize is The Sun, a tabloid rag with a history of false reporting, is the only original reporting. The other outlets are parroting them, some without attribution by simply stating "according to reports" like the above linked NZ Herald, or indirectly by attributing to a report which attributes it to another and so on, until it ultimately gets back to The Sun, like in this India Times article.

NYT: "Dictator Kim Jong Un has declared that serving the sausage was an act of treason, The Sun reports..."

Vice: "One thing to keep in mind about this report is that you have to take it with a grain of salt. It originates from The Sun, a tabloid that doesn’t have a ton of credibility." -Emphasis mine because it's funny-

The Mirror: . "One vendor, who is based in the northern province of Ryanggang, stressed that authorities have been monitoring them closely. The vendor told The Sun..."

Regardless, none of this really matters. This "call for commentary" appears to be your attempt to legitimize your moderation as we're doing scarcely more than the bloke you banned for answering your request. You're doing less. Should you be banned?

If you can't be impartial, or at least honest about it when you aren't, consider handing the job to someone who can.

this post was submitted on 07 Jan 2025
281 points (100.0% liked)

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