24
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2024
24 points (100.0% liked)
Random
84 readers
1 users here now
If you have a random question, thought, want to share something cool, or want to vent, this is the place to do it.
Mark NSFW, no misinformation, no spam, and no bigotry.
founded 9 months ago
MODERATORS
I have weird appreciation for lengthy replies like this, so thank you lol.
Okay, first: Altered Carbon. I really did attempt to watch this, but then was turned off by the amount of info dumping in the pilot alone. Thanks for explaining the lore because now I have a reason to give it a second chance. I initially watched for an actor I was interested in, then was intrigued by the thriller aspects, then immediately confused. Will def give it another go.
Oh and the Altered Carbon transhumanist aspects (or any other sci-fi that delves into “resurrection” via soul or consciousness transferring to a new body) always remind me of the Ghost in the Shell anime series. It deals with similar themes, but with a more philosophical and metaphysical approach. Also, I recall that in Ghost, mind transference into a “shell” (body) is not exclusive to the ultra wealthy. And getting cybernetic parts is something that many people can do, regardless of socioeconomic background. The issue is that if you wanted, say, a new leg due to a permanent injury, but you don’t have much cash, you might have to buy a very poor quality leg. If you know the series and I’m misremembering anything, feel free to correct me.
As for LOTR, I do believe you might have given me a spoiler unknowingly. I’m currently halfway through The Silmarillion and Melkor is tearing up the Elven and Human forces. Sauron was barely introduced. But nothing you just told me is anything that I am truly surprised by. I don’t recall if the Elven life cycle was completely explained at the point in the story where I am.
I understand your point about gullibility. There are so many examples of it in The Silmarillion. And I think all stories have some form of lesson in there, even if what can be learned is hard to find or unintended by the creator.
Also, Star Trek is an odd comparison to the others because I always believed Star Trek to be more aspirational rather than predictive of what is to come. As in, let’s look beyond this post-Jim Crow era. Imagine what our world will like if we moved far beyond all the petty racism, misogyny, homophobia and supremacy that plagued our ancestors.
I am not familiar with Starship Troopers, but stories like Altered Carbon and Elysium seem far more plausible in the very near future than any of the other sci fi universes out there. And I’m really only referring to the class inequality aspects, not the mind transfer detail.
Ghost in the Shell is another fantastic one! There are different versions of it and I'm sure how readily accessible various parts are vs. are not likely varies between them. But anyway that does sound totally consistent with its premise that everything that we have now we would still have but it would be just a tiny bit better integrated in terms of the mind+body connection.
If I spoiled something for LOTR then I apologize - fwiw I think it might not be a true "spoiler" bc what I mentioned about humans going on to the next world may never have been resolved in the books? I never read them though - what I said came from Wikipedia, and I only read the porlogue to The Silmarillion. And the Elven life cycle is just "details", or at least that's how I feel but if you feel differently and do get to it later then I hope it won't ruin your enjoyment of that portion of the book:-).
Starship Troopers was just a stupid sci-fi movie, but I think you got where I was going more with the reference to Star Wars. As in there's still wars, literal slavery, enormous inequality, bureaucratic wastefulness, and in general the Yin/Yang play between aspects like "good" and "evil" where there is nothing that is wholly one or the other.
Case in point: the Jedi were such massive frauds, claiming to value non-attachment, but then propping up the corrupt establishment that ignored the socially dispossed even on the home planet of Coruscant, leaving orphans to rot in the lower levels of the city-planet while the Jedi live in their fabulous sky palace with all the money they could ever need or want. But rather than get on an elevator and go down to visit those kids that exist 10 minutes travel away, the Jedi instead are sent out to whatever planet has the most valuable commodities and engage in whatever activities work towards increasing the overall wealth of The Republic. The real twist there is: it's not the ignoring of the needs of the poor that makes the Jedi hypocrites, it's the FAILURE to ignore the "needs" of the wealthy.
Or at least that's one way to look at it, but perhaps I'm wrong - in any case that whole universe seems designed to show off those kinds of dynamics, where want and poverty are still very much reality, unlike Star Trek where The Federation at least has moved beyond that.
Sigh... yeah:-(. It's like people are giving up on the aspirational stuff that seems too unrealistic to even be of interest, hence e.g. Altered Carbon despite the mind drive actually calls out to us as viewers as being something worth thinking about, bc it's not only likely but inevitable (IF technology could be developed to make that lifestyle a possibility).
Well, the good thing about Ghost in the Shell (I’m a huge fan, but I’m not caught up on the 2 newest series), is its internal canon structure. Because the entire series is originally based on a metaphysical, transhumanist novel, all the adaptions more or less share the same themes. The difference is how each story (the OG manga, anime, movies, OAV, etc.) approaches those themes and reworks the lead cast of characters. Anyway, GiTS: 2nd Gig (S2 of the first anime series) does address class struggles, with a specific focus on immigrants. I don’t think it was handled in a way that was very compelling, but the acknowledgement that the government could be doing far more to help its own citizens regardless of background was very clear.
A little addendum: Another manga/anime series that has similar class struggle metaphors is Battle Angel Alita / Gunnm (pronounced Gahn-moo). Again, getting cybernetic upgrades / prosthetics is not really an issue for poor folks. Many people just go to cyborg doctors or they simply build the parts with scrap metal. The problem in this world is when people are hunted and murdered for their prosthetics. I’m saying it’s roses, except for that. A huge chunk of the OG story happens on a giant scrap heap (where more people live) after all, so Elysium, AC, Gunnm and even Arcane (no spoilers for S2 please lol) have pretty stark parallels.
Ah, I assumed you were a Tolkien super fan with all the explaining. Well, that’s all right. I’m just getting into the original novels and I don’t think you’ve said anything that’s so drastic it makes me not want to continue reading. In fact, I’m actually much more curious now because Sauron has been let go and he’s making moves on the different factions. And a lot of the Elven lore is sprinkled throughout the book, so I think I will continue to be interested in the story. You’re good lol.
I think Starship Troopers was originally based on a novel. I recall some guy reading it in one of my old anime clubs at my university. I like to think the movie is close to the book, regarding warfare and imperialism in the near future as it relates to scientific advancement.
Oh and I mentioned Star Trek TOS that way because I still believe that it was a show unbelievably ahead of its time, but at the same time, extremely relevant for its own time (and unfortunately, still relevant today). Like, somehow Trek came out in 1966 not long after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was signed and passed. I was thinking how that show was envisioning a world that seemed almost scary to imagine because the reality of so many BIPOCs reflected the exact opposite aspirational goals that the team was trying to convey. That’s why I think Trek is more like a world to look forward to. Not just people like myself, but all manner of minorities. It might seem hokey what Roddenberry was trying to convey, but I do like the narrative concept of having a sci-fi that is explicitly anti-war and anti-colonialist. At least to a degree.
As much I love Star Wars, its universe, with all the rampant oppression (and unfortunately, the meta racist tropes and cultural appropriation that the entire franchise uses to deliver its messages; more of genre problem, but I digress) in various forms, I do believe you’re right. That world reflects way better on the world we live in now.
I catch your point about the moral bankruptcy and spiritual corruption of the Jedi Order. It is a sad, but necessary reflection of real life religious institutions that essentially do as you described. Use religious texts, deliver spiritual teachings only to exploit these moral values for the sake of profiteering off of working class people. I’m not a-religious just to be clear, but I always feel a sense of great embarrassment when I see how spot on the “Jedi are hypocrites” argument can be to RL places of worship.
It is, at the end of the day, one perspective to view the Jedi. Unfortunately, other writers have taken suit to writing Jedi in a very similar manner as Lucas did in the prequels. Like, I totally get the critique because it’s well deserved. One has to still remember that the SW universe is enormous and not all Force-believing factions and beings function in the same corrupted manner as the late Republic Jedi.
That brings me to the your last comment. Again, I was gushing over Star Trek because even though there was noteworthy backstage drama and certain problematic aspects to it, it still kinda made me think of a world beyond our own. It still makes me think of sci-fi stories beyond what we are often given. Like, why does sci-fi as a genre always have to look like Star Wars or Starship Troopers. Or, hell, Terminator? Can we as a species not imagine ourselves in a world beyond all these self-destructive forms of oppression?
What I find super interesting about Ghost in the Shell (in comparison to Altered Carbon) is how they depict cyber brains. Basically, two or more (or even an entire small community) of people can connect to each other on a kind of neural network. Like a mind hub. Don’t know if they have that in AC, but basically you have USBs in the back of your neck and you can easily share information. Obviously, you’re at risk of being brain hacked, (like in the Cyberpunk game) but that seems both scary and kind of interesting because you might more easily be able to share information in way that you might not even be able to do over the web if you’re in a country that has a lot of government censorship of websites. Ghost in the Shell depicts this in a very normalized way. S1 of the first anime, Stand Alone Complex, shows the extreme danger of sharing information this way and how it can be used to manipulate people to commit copycat crimes.
Unfortunately, as you said, so much of this genre’s focus (with good reason) is on cautionary tales and warnings about technology. It would be truly lovely to see something that isn’t so far a utopia (to the point of alienating the audience), but also isn’t a straight up planet-rotting dystopia that literally is just an upsetting reflection of my own working class neighborhood. It would be nice to have an acknowledgment of the bad, but still something else. You know? I understand your exasperation.
Sorry for the long rambly replies. Your responses are thought provoking.
I very much enjoyed reading the OLD scifi works, like HG Wells "Time Machine", and anything by Isaac Asimov. These present quite a different world-view - including much more realistic, and dare I say pessimistic outlooks on how the future would look (hint: virtually identical to today, just with a higher level of technical sophistication).
These are more rare to see in movie form, b/c people don't want to pay money to see such - unless that adversity only exists in the start of the movie, but is then overcome through hard work & ingenuity - although a fantastic exeption exists in Wall-E. There, the people basically simply sat down and never bothered to ever stand up again, not seeing any point to need to do so? OF COURSE that is more realistic than e.g. Star Trek where people all work together, following military levels of precision and discipline, for the nebulous goal of "the common good".
I recall the Black Fleet Crisis series of Star Wars books where Luke chases down a non-Jedi order of force users ("White Current") that chooses not to get involved in galactic politics, and therefore managed to avoid the purge that took the Jedi down along with the rest of the Old Republic as it converted into the Empire. Though the vast majority of the Star Wars universe seemed to revolve around the Jedi v. Sith dynamic, with all the mere "plebes" being relatively unimportant - much like today where the "real" people (Bezos, Musk, Trump) fly high above us in their sky castles, untouched by "laws" of society or to a large degree even physics (decay, death, disorder - all are muted at least some amount due to the influx of resources to overcome their effects, e.g. those who have health care are effected less by diseases than those who do not). And the rest of us just suffer from their fights, as shit rolls downhill. THAT may be the biggest distinction between Star Wars vs. Trek then: in the latter, everyone mattered purely based on their ability, usually more so rather than some accident of their birth (Wesley Crusher was a somewhat unusual situation, being on a starship due to his mother's assignment there, but most children did not have access to such opportunities).
In a word: "no". Entropy exists, as too does inertia, and we cannot simply turn aside as if it were literally nothing the collective force that propelled us towards this point. If you are at least familiar with the religious language: to dust we came, and to dust we shall return - it is an error in philosophy to think that we can rise above it all without any difficulties as those forces work to claw and cling and force us back down into the us-vs-them, eat-or-be-eaten set of dynamics that govern the basic principles of our world, even below the subatomic level. It was naive of us (imho) to think, not that it could not be done, but that it would be so easy. Like a doctor, if we want to cure a disease, we first have to diagnose it, which means opening our eyes to see clearly the road ahead of us. That is why works such as Rules for Rulers are so upsetting to us: b/c it exposes our own hypocrisy and wishful thinking that the world could magically become like how we wish it, without any investment of effort on our part. So: are you sure that you want to have what you asked for?
Farscape and Firefly are neat shows that are a bit like you asked though:-), and within the realm of scifi. Those type of space operas though get expensive to try to produce on a TV or movie budget, so there aren't that many to begin with - that's why anime is so awesome, allowing a deeper and wider exploration of possibilities (just by virtue of making numerically more of them, the chances of one rising up that will be truly great rise, plus an author can gain experience and thereby create better and better ones over time). Like Sword Art Online: is it "pure fantasy", or is it "scifi", or both, or neither, or... something else altogether? Whatever the case, it's a great one if you haven't consumed it yet:-).
Though as CGI costs continue to lower, I wager that we'll see more of the traditional "space opera" types of ye olden times resume once again. Although... is there a difference then really, b/t "real life" people in costumes (like Worf or Data in ST:TNG), "actual puppets" like Farscape, and "full CGI" like anime? Check out a trailer for "Exception" (https://www.netflix.com/title/81002444), a sci-fi fantasy where people travel to the stars and then 3d print their bodies rather than preserve the originals in cryo-sleep, leading to an issue that forms dramatic tension as they try to resolve it. People are people, regardless of what technology they have access to. That's why I think Star Trek was "wrong" - or not wrong per se but yeah, highly stilted and unrealistic, though useful all the more deeply for serving as an aspirational goal, yet completely neglecting to touch base with the part of about to actually ARRIVE at such a far-different utopian society? I mean, we ALREADY, RIGHT NOW have the ability to feed the entire world - we could do the Star Trek stuff RIGHT NOW, even without "antimatter reactors" or "replicators" or "energy to matter converters". Instead, we choose not to. Hence why we've collectively (societally I mean) lost interest in watching the show: we've already chosen not to walk that path, so we're all just wondering which one we'll end up moving towards instead... Altered Carbon it is then, it would seem:-(.