view the rest of the comments
News
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
Aside from an actual source of actual mortality numbers, which I asked for. And yes, I looked up the links you pasted, which you did not. None of them give the source either, other than Nutt.
All of this comes from this Nutt, who is apparently aptly named, because he's apparently just making shit up. And you just accept it for no apparent reason other than you want people to die from cannabis.
I read your links. You clearly did not. In fact, you pasted them within minutes of my responses so you didn't even have time to. It's pretty silly to tell someone to read links you haven't read as if they prove your point.
We'll discuss this as soon as you acknowledge that there is no legitimate source for the death information in the chart you gave. It all comes from one guy who just doesn't like cannabis rather than any sort of actual medical information.
Edit: If you are going to lie and claim you read all of that, I think this part of the conversation where you didn't realize the chart had mortality information and told me to read the chart to see that there isn't any when there is shows quite clearly that you don't read the information you provide very carefully:
You're being serious? Discrediting all of his science, because he's probably bias? Not childish at all.
No you didn't.
Did you read the full text from the Lancet? (It's free but requires logging in.)
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61462-6/fulltext#box1
You started this protest by protesting the "mortality" bit of the chart. (Which, admittedly, I had forgotten about.) We then started arguing over it, you going on about people claiming there are arguments of "cannabis killing people" and asking me if I "know the LD50 of cannabis". I replied by saying that I know about studies like this, and I understand that the mortality figures also come from drug-related diseases, like lung cancer if you've smoked the substance of your choice. You ignored that bit, and are still ignoring it.
From that link:
Road traffic accidents and lung cancers? Just like I said way back. That yes, the mortality stat is sus to an extent, because of the mechanism of say, a drunk driver killing themselves, then having blood taken, it having cannabis, and that being attributed to cannabis mortality. However, the other part which is more objectively reasonable is the lung cancer bit. Why? Because it's very popular to SMOKE cannabis and smoking anything causes cancer.
I do not have access to the individual datapoints of their study. They've used sophisticated software to analyse it. Do you think you'd analyse the data better?
My point has been, all the time, that while the data for mortality probably isn't accurate, we can say for certain that some, probably most of it, is due to the increased mortality from smoking. Like I said, if everyone just ate it, the mortality should be zero, and if we knew everyone took edibles and never smoked, and if there still was a wide mortality rate in a chart like that, then we could say it was wholly suspect.
See if you had actually opened the full study on the Lancet, you'd have seen that more accurate chart. Almost as if you didn't and are just somewhat childishly trying to win this debate, even though I consider it a conversation and thus there are no winners or losers. I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying I know that most of the mortality is due to smoking reducing lifespans and a lot of cannabis being smoked. I too smoke. It's unhealthy. I've tried changing to vapes several times, but it's just not as good. A dab pen would be. Maybe even just an electric nail to my bong. But then making my own dab feels like a waste as smoking bud just makes it last longer.
I am not replying to you multiple times. You pick a thread and I'll answer you in that one.
My god, more excuses.
No need to reply to my one sentence comment pointing out the same problem were arguing here. Just answer the comment above yours.
Sure. I've read everything you have told me to read except that long PDF, which I am guessing you also did not read.
Nothing you have pasted, nothing in those studies tell me where the chart got its cannabis mortality figures from or how they calculate them.
That is all I have asked for from the beginning. You can get angry about it, you can paste as much as you like, but none of it tells me where that chart got its information on cannabis mortality.
Because, and this has been true since the beginning, you have no idea.
So you haven't read them. And still with this inane sealioning, purposefully ignoring what I keep repeating.
You know smoking is the most popular way of using cannabis. You know smoking causes cancers. You also know these mortality figures have "drug-related" mortality in them, and that is specifically said to be from, among other things, lung cancer.
So stomp your foot all your want but you are wrong and this childish bullshit is making you lose a whole lot of respect you've gained on Lemmy.
Fig 1
(I won't list the rest of the panel because no relation to the matter at hand and you can still look it up yourself, which you've been lying about.)
So just like I've said FROM THE START, the mortality comes from drug-related disease, like lung cancer, and drug-specific mortality comes from dying in a car crash with the coroner reporting cannabis AMONG other substances, which will still make it count towards the stat, while not having had an effect on the crash compared to the others. But no. You sit there claiming that I haven't understood and that these studies somehow claim that people are dying of cannabis-overdoses. Which you've asked explicitly several times over, despite me trying to explain this to you in the simplest way possible.
Okay, I'm tired of the insults and I've never seen anyone go so far to avoid saying, "I don't know the source of those numbers on one specific chart," as if that is the same as saying "there is no such thing as a death that involves cannabis use," something I've never even implied.
But you'll have to find someone else to violate the civility rule with repeatedly now.
Don't worry, I won't report you for it. Not this time.
P.S. It's okay to say you don't know things. It's not a sign of weakness. I promise you.
I'm literally showing you the very source of the statistics. Which you're just refusing to accept, because presumably you're incapable of going "oh, my mistake, I was wrong."
That's the scientists explaining — in detail — how the data was collected and where from. I also went into the sources of that study. Did you actually log into the Lancet and read the article, or open, see you need an account and go "oh whatever"?
You've several times now, asked "do you know the LD50 of cannabis" and "how exactly is cannabis killing people". Straight up refusing to accept that I've explained in detail the difference between drug related and drug specific mortality and how both stats can have things in them without anyone having claimed that a person died of too much cannabis in their system.
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that people SMOKE cannabis and smoking causes a higher mortality rate? I said that before reading the studies, but now that I have done they also explicitly state that, like I KNEW they would.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=50ba3efb0204557af6b762141f94c9a68cb9e291
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert-Gable/publication/14984972_Toward_a_Comparative_Overview_of_Dependence_Potential_and_Acute_Toxicity_of_Psychoactive_Substances_Used_Nonmedically/links/557613d908aeb6d8c01aea8d/Toward-a-Comparative-Overview-of-Dependence-Potential-and-Acute-Toxicity-of-Psychoactive-Substances-Used-Nonmedically.pdf
Both of these quantify deaths from cannabis, but explicitly state the actual LD50 to be unknown, as there's fewer than three reports of people having died and those can't be ascertained to be because of cannabis. So they get the LD50 from animals and extrapolate it to humans based on fancy maths. And explicitly state that. Both of them give substances safety ratings. The rating for heroin is 6. Alcohol 10. MDMA 16. The study concludes that they show that MDMA's dangers have been exaggerated, and it's inline with cocaine and meth etc. The number for cannabis, you're asking? They rate it as >1000.
No-one is claiming people are dying of cannabis overdoses, and now that we're this deep in this thread, there's no way you're gonna back on that childish assumption. So I await more bullshit sealioning and excuses despite me linking the methods and sources of all the fucking data from the economist article that you pretend you were too incapable of Googling yourself.
Like what more can you want then the sources for all citations in that study, and the study explaining this in length:
You want the individual data points from all the related studies? All the names and addresses of the people who died and their coroners reports? That's not how science works, ffs
I've explained in detail and with the actual data where the mortality figures come from. You can't accept it, because it would mean admitting to how silly you were. Like a teenager who's just discovered cannabis; "you can't die of cannabis, this study is fake news!"
Everyone here can see that you're avoiding answering whether you even logged in to the Lancet to read the study. You didn't. People here can also see that you're STILL IGNORING THE THING IVE REPEATED DOZENS OF TIMES; smoking is a popular way of using cannabis and smoking causes cancer.
Anyone reading this will see just how childish you're being.
It's okay that you were ignorant and completely wrong. It's not a sign of weakness, I promise you. However, childish trying to pretend you didn't make a mistake? Acting like a toddler, because you can't admit to having lost an argument? That is a sign of weakness.
I'm literally showing you the very source of the statistics. Which you're just refusing to accept, because presumably you're incapable of going "oh, my mistake, I was wrong."
That's the scientists explaining — in detail — how the data was collected and where from. I also went into the sources of that study. Did you actually log into the Lancet and read the article, or open, see you need an account and go "oh whatever"?
You've several times now, asked "do you know the LD50 of cannabis" and "how exactly is cannabis killing people". Straight up refusing to accept that I've explained in detail the difference between drug related and drug specific mortality and how both stats can have things in them without anyone having claimed that a person died of too much cannabis in their system.
Why do you keep ignoring the fact that people SMOKE cannabis and smoking causes a higher mortality rate? I said that before reading the studies, but now that I have done they also explicitly state that, like I KNEW they would.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=50ba3efb0204557af6b762141f94c9a68cb9e291
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert-Gable/publication/14984972_Toward_a_Comparative_Overview_of_Dependence_Potential_and_Acute_Toxicity_of_Psychoactive_Substances_Used_Nonmedically/links/557613d908aeb6d8c01aea8d/Toward-a-Comparative-Overview-of-Dependence-Potential-and-Acute-Toxicity-of-Psychoactive-Substances-Used-Nonmedically.pdf
Both of these quantify deaths from cannabis, but explicitly state the actual LD50 to be unknown, as there's fewer than three reports of people having died and those can't be ascertained to be because of cannabis. So they get the LD50 from animals and extrapolate it to humans based on fancy maths. And explicitly state that. Both of them give substances safety ratings. The rating for heroin is 6. Alcohol 10. MDMA 16. The study concludes that they show that MDMA's dangers have been exaggerated, and it's inline with cocaine and meth etc. The number for cannabis, you're asking? They rate it as >1000.
No-one is claiming people are dying of cannabis overdoses, and now that we're this deep in this thread, there's no way you're gonna back on that childish assumption. So I await more bullshit sealioning and excuses despite me linking the methods and sources of all the fucking data from the economist article that you pretend you were too incapable of Googling yourself.
Like what more can you want then the sources for all citations in that study, and the study explaining this in length:
You want the individual data points from all the related studies? All the names and addresses of the people who died and their coroners reports? That's not how science works, ffs