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this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024
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Libertarians: "GOD THIS IS AN UNJUST TYRANNY TO ME AND ONLY ME"
Libertarians: "This is normal and just, everyone is stupid except for me, I read Ayn Rand."
I'm down to talk out what is a just tax, what is unfair, what the taxes should go to once collected, but I think Libertarians are too hooked on think tank propaganda to decide something for themselves.
It's even better: a lot of essential or close to it things are pretty much monopolies or cartels (for example, Internet access in most of the US) so people have no actual choice but to pay a specific entity whatever they chose to charge.
It's like tax but without the upside of taxes (which is that they're money that's supposed to entirely end up benefiting you, even if most of it indirectly) because when you buy a product or service from a monopoly or cartel only part of it goes to cover the cost of the actual product or service you're getting and a large fraction or even most of it goes to shareholder dividends, which has zero benefit for you.
I've taken to call these things Taxes Paid Directly To Private Companies.
Weird. How did those ISPs end up the only option?
Government and corporate interests can't help but suck each other off. Petty tyrants are gonna tyrant.
The land the utilities were built on were through government seized easements generally. The monopoly wouldn't exist unless propped up by a state.
Sounds like we should have made ISPs government owned then!
That could be a better system than the current government enforced monopoly.
Corporations are fucked up. They will never allow the state to be abolished because they need to collect taxes in order to bail themselves out of trouble and in order to fight wars for them at the taxpayer expense so they can reap the profits... a corporation will never go to war alone. War is fucking expensive and is rarely directly profitable. They want to socialize expenses and privatize gain, which is impossible to do without a government of some kind.
That's why you need to abolish both capitalism and state..
Anarchy works
...so, what, we're supposed to build an entire society on people's inherent willingness to help each other and just trust that crime will stop happening?
Like mate, I hate to break it to you, but psychopaths exist. The entire problem with capitalism is that some people are never satisfied no matter how much they have and will do anything they possibly can to hoard anything that could give them an advantage at the expense of the group.
Its true, the things that stop crime can only ever be made by a state.
In fact, people never managed to stop or punish theft or a murder until we invesnted states.
Yup, before states, if someone came a murdered your friend you had to trust that what you just witnessed didn't happen because there was literally nothing you could do about it, as states hadn't been invented yet.
Its good thing were too smart to fall for that.....
...and your proposed alternative is...?
I really, really hope I don't have to explain why vigilante justice is a bad idea.
Lol nice try but I don't have to provide you with an alternative for you to attack. You're wasting youre time there.
The point is, even all those hundreds of years ago, we had an alternative to just trusting that crime wouldn't exist, as you suggested was the only alternative.
Other than its state-ness exaplin the difference between state vigilante justice and the exact equivalent done by any other kind of group.
I really, really hope I don't have to explain why it being done by a state doesn't magically make it better, in of itself.
"See, the thing is, I already know I'm right, so I'm not going to waste time by giving you arguments to find flaws in."
...you mean why a system of justice that is held liable to a court system is not superior to a system of justice where people can just go after whomever they want? yeah, you do have to explain that actually
Again, nice try but I'm used to people as slippery as you. What you mean is "you're right, we don't just have to sit around and trust that crime doesn't exist. However, I'm the kind of person who really struggles to back down or walk back even the most wild and silly of things that I imply."
Why would I explain something completely different to what I said to you?
Okay, so if we're not just going to trust that crime isn't going to happen, how are we going to prevent it? I asked you that, straight up, and you said "I'm not going to give you something just for you to poke holes in it. I've dealt with your kind before."
So, are you saying we do or we don't all have to just sit around and trust crime wouldn't exist? Sorry, I couldn't tell which one it was you were saying from that answer.
You say we don't. A cursory reading of the source you cited seems to imply that we do. Obviously, then, a cursory reading of the source is insufficient, and you must have some solution that will prevent crime in the absence of judges and police officers, right?
You linked to this source, so surely you've read it and you understand the author's position better than I do, right?
I still couldn't make out which one is was sorry?
You say we don't have to just hope people don't commit crimes. Let's suppose that's true. How do you plan to prevent them?
I haven't made up my mind on this issue yet. Tell me why you're right.
You know, I'm starting to think that you're not even trying to confirm which one it was and, instead, are just being deliberately evasive while expecting me to confirm things for you, without and hint or irony or self awareness on your part.
Funny. You're the only one who asked me to confirm things. All I asked you was why you thought what you did.
I gave you the easiest task in the world and you still failed.
Goodbye, troll.
You can't fail something you didn't try and you weren't prepared to answer any questions from me. Its just you sheer arrogance that makes you think you can demand answers from someone while giving none.
All you had to do was walk an obviously, undeniably invalid argument and you wouldn't do it.
I just mirrored your behaviour and you called me a troll, without a hint of irony. Thats all that happened here.
I heard him say he murdered his friend.
Pity there is no third party to investigate my claim. We'll just have to string him up ourselves.
I call dibs on his shoes.
Well, in a society without judges, as the article linked proposes, I'm having a hard time seeing it any other way.
One is something you choose to pay, the other you get shot if you don't pay. There is a pretty big difference.
Contract claims and property claims are ultimately enforceable by government force, as well. A "no trespassing" or "no loitering" sign, or a "Copyrighted work, all rights reserved" notice is enforceable by men with guns, too.
If taxation is theft, the same reasoning would extend to property being theft, too.
Depends how the property was claimed. Most property in the US was illegitimately claimed.