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this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2024
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And morons keep buying Teslas.
It really seems like Elon Musk has been given free reign to kill people.
To be fair, won’t this be an issue for all EVs?
Totally. And ICE cars never burn, amirite?
It does take a lot less effort to put out an ICE engine fire.
No, but at least you can put those out with water when it happens.
That wasn't always a thing. This is a new and rapidly evolving area with issues that will be solved. Hell, battery chemistry is changing rapidly already. ICE cars have been death traps for most of their life and are still at higher risk of going in flames and just as violently, case in point the car carrier that went on fire that everyone just knew was an EV, wasn't. It was a shitty old ice. Luton Airport too. Everyone knew that was a. EV. Was a shitty old diesel and that car park suffered serious structural damage because of it. In addition the AA claim that the majority of ICE fire are because of the 12v battery. None of this is new it's just different.
Good point. I'm not sure. It may be that we're (I'm) hearing more about Teslas catching fire because they're the largest distributor in the US (and I live here). However, they're not the largest in the world and I haven't heard of this problem happening with other EVs (though they may be).
Regardless, Elon Musk is a pompous charlatan and defrauder that deserves much worse than he'll ever get. Bias be damned.
Wow, you should look into the hundreds of ev car fires in China that happen for may more reasons than crashes. Such as charging the battery and just sitting there in traffic or just sitting in an ev car lot. BYD is one of the largest ev brands in China, and their shit just catches fire for no reason some times.
That's totally fair. My apologies for my ignorance.
I wouldn't be surprised Tesla uses shit quality batteries
All ev batteries will burn like this, though. It's the nature of this type of battery.
Not all EVs need Li-Po batteries. They probably won't be in the next couple of years. The cheap end of the market will use sodium-ion, and the more expensive end solid state lithium. Both have much better fire protection and puncture resilience than Li-Po. Both types of batteries are at the manufacturing stage, but aren't in cars yet.
So what you’re saying is that, in fact, all EV’s do have lithium batteries
Today, yes, but there's no reason to think it'll stay this way. The lithium batteries that will stick around aren't likely to have this problem.
Yep yep surely, but I think batteries could be manufactured to be just more or less resistant
The batteries (a battery is a bunch of cells) actually are made to be resistant. Be it firewalls between the cells, fuses, fire retardant, exhaust systems, BMS for thermal management etc.
The cells it's just the nature of the chemistry and form.
The pouch cells used in many EVs are actually more fire prone than the cells used in a Tesla or Rivian. They are very easy to puncture, so in an accident or from manufacturing defects their fire risks are higher. They're also larger in format and each cell contains more energy, resulting in a risk of more fire if something goes bad.
Prismatic and cylindrical cells are less fire prone and IMO should be the only choices. I wouldn't be surprised if pouch cells were deemed unfit for vehicles far in the future, but probably not before the industry moves away from them naturally. Many have already announced moving away from pouch cells. One of the reasons they're used in cars today is there was excess pouch manufacturing capacity compared to prismatic/cylindrical. The existing OEMs had to cobble together a battery supply chain with very few options.
Then the chemistry is important too. Lithium iron phosphate cells are more tolerant and less likely to have thermal runaway than the NCA or NMC (nickle coblat aluminum / nickle manganese cobalt), but their power density is lower, so you aren't making long range vehicles (or semis with good range) today. LiPo cells are prismatic as well due to the nature of how they are made, so less fire risk from chemistry, and less risk from battery cell form.
Sodium Ion are even less likely, but it'll be well over a decade before you make more than a commuter car with those, if ever. Toss them in a cheap to build car though and we can make a really great and cheap commuter vehicle in the near future.
Edit: more details.
You seem very informed on the matter, thank you for your clarification
Thanks! I've been following this for a very long time. I think the Lithium Iron Phosphate cells are going to be the best option we have for a long while in terms of fire risk/energy density/cost. Watching them improve over the years and make their way into more cars has been great.
You don't hear about them because Western media doesn't make as big a deal about them.
If you can throw the word Tesla or Elon on something it gets plastered everywhere, including here.
Same with recalls.
Tesla recalls something software related like the unbuckled seat belt chime not working if you do steps A B then C and its huge news. Within the next 2 weeks 5 or 6 other major OEMs do recalls and you barely hear about it. And yes, recalls happen in groups like that where other OEMs wait for someone to go first and take the bigger hit.
That's fair. I fully acknowledge my limited scope/understanding and bias.
I wish we lived in a better world with better intentioned people overall. It's easy to focus on Elon Musk because he's the biggest/loudest dragon, hoarding the most gold. There are others just like him everywhere. It's depressing and overwhelming.
I'm not a fan of cars in general, but understand their necessity in plenty of situations. EVs have great potential, but need good-intentioned engineers with plenty of oversight to safely fuel their development. I'm sure these companies have some brilliant scientific minds in there and they should be allowed to usher in a new age of invention, not limited by the bottom line of vampiric shareholders and the egos of CEOs. It's just so sad.
Pretty much ya.
Not specific to cars but it's sad to think about what we could have had if we let these people build things properly. So many things don't happen due to money. Inventions and knowledge getting bought and squashed as it'd interfere with the bigger companies plans etc.
Wasn’t there an entire ship of Audis?
No. This kind of safety issue isn't universal to all lithium chemistries, much less other chemistries. If they do catch on fire, it isn't self-oxidizing the way it is for Li-Po chemistry. Other types also have better resilience to punctures.
All forms of high-density energy storage are dangerous, regardless of who manufactures them.
This is not a Tesla problem. This is electric vehicle problem.
My local fire department once had to put out the same VW Buzz 3 times because it kept re-igniting. Nowdays they have containers filled with water that they completely submerge electric vehicles into that had caught fire.
It's a Tesla problem in that it is a bumrushing tech that hasn't matured for what it's being used for because profit motive.
And no, if the tech isn't mature to be both useful AND safe in the event of failure operating in the world, it belongs in the lab, not up for sale.
We shouldn't be mass producing any vehicles that become bombs/environmental disasters that standard fire and rescue can't appropriately address with reasonable tools upon crashing, because they inevitably will.
Its a market capitalism problem. Fire, ready, aim because rush the pos to sale. Musk is certainly a standard bearer as a prominent "get government and society's wellbeing out of the way of my quarterly profit expectations" asshole sociopath capitalist.
We don't have time to perfect and mature the tech though. That was 40 years ago. Now it's whatever fucking works that isn't fossil fuels and burning of them. It's a damn sight safer than an ICE which is actually carrying extremely combustible liquids in it too. It's not perfect but it's better and this kind of " we have to hold off" is effectively supporting the status quo which is fuckig everything up as it is.
I hear you, and that's a valid point, but I see that more as a function of our insatiable need for the primary driver of our destruction: growth/metastasis.
Growth is precisely what is destroying us. We need to find homeostasis with this world. We need to slow down, stop expanding supply chains, and work on making what powers these 100% clean first and foremost. Because right now, most electrics are functionally dirty too, their pollution just happens higher up the chain.
We won't do that of course, because the reality is most people in the developed world need to accept that wasteful things like fast food, ridiculous amounts of meat, and plastic that serves no necessary purpose, everything from pop figures to disposable water bottles available to people with reusable vessels out of convenience, need to be made illegal yesterday if we want our species to have a decent future.
But our creature comforts are more important to us, and we will punish any politicians that try to call for genuine sacrifice. 🔥🤷🔥
Entirely valid and I agree that continual growth is right at the heart of most of our problems. I guess most of my frustration comes from the fact we've had at least 40 years of warning, 20 more years of proper, severe warning and promises for action and now that we're seeing day in, day out that all the warnings were right, we're still not moving with any real purpose. I genuinely thought that COVID would show us what we need to do and how we could do it but nope, slipped right back into business as usual.
I think your feelings toward Elon may be clouding your judgement here a bit. Putting out electric vehicle fire is hard, independent of the brand of the vehicle.
It’s any lithium battery, not just one evil villain. At least you’re not recharging your car inside the living space of your house, like your computer or phone or e-bike or e-scooter or vacuum cleaner
Personally I think there’s a market for a fire proof container for charging batteries. I’ve been thinking about stacking cinder blocks in my basement for charging yardcare and tool batteries such that they couldn’t catch anything just in case
Wasn't aware. I think that's a great idea, honestly. Keep yourself safe.