Hey all,
In light of recent events concerning one of our communities (/c/vegan), we (as a team) have spent the last week working on how to address better some concerns that had arisen between the moderators of that community and the site admin team. We always strive to find a balance between the free expression of communities hosted here and protecting users from potentially harmful content.
We as a team try to stick to a general rule of respect and consideration for the physical and mental well-being of our users when drafting new rules and revising existing ones. Furthermore, we've done our best to try to codify these core beliefs into the additions to the ToS and a new by-laws section.
ToS Additions
That being said, we will be adding a new section to our “terms of service” concerning misinformation. While we do try to be as exact as reasonably able, we also understand that rules can be up to interpretation as well. This is a living document, and users are free to respectfully disagree. We as site admins will do our best to consider the recommendations of all users regarding potentially revising any rules.
Regarding misinformation, we've tried our best to capture these main ideas, which we believe are very reasonable:
- Users are encouraged to post information they believe is true and helpful.
- We recommend users conduct thorough research using reputable scientific sources.
- When in doubt, a policy of “Do No Harm”, based on the Hippocratic Oath, is a good compass on what is okay to post.
- Health-related information should ideally be from peer-reviewed, reproducible scientific studies.
- Single studies may be valid, but often provide inadequate sample sizes for health-related advice.
- Non-peer-reviewed studies by individuals are not considered safe for health matters.
We reserve the right to remove information that could cause imminent physical harm to any living being. This includes topics like conversion therapy, unhealthy diets, and dangerous medical procedures. Information that could result in imminent physical harm to property or other living beings may also be removed.
We know some folks who are free speech absolutists may disagree with this stance, but we need to look out for both the individuals who use this site and for the site itself.
By-laws Addition
We've also added a new by-laws section as well as a result of this incident. This new section is to better codify the course of action that should be taken by site and community moderators when resolving conflict on the site, and also how to deal with dormant communities.
This new section provides also provides a course of action for resolving conflict with site admin staff, should it arise. We want both the users and moderators here to feel like they have a voice that is heard, and essentially a contact point that they can feel safe going to, to “talk to the manager” type situation, more or less a new Lemmy.World HR department that we've created as a result of what has happened over the last week.
Please feel free to raise any questions in this thread. We encourage everyone to please take the time to read over these new additions detailing YOUR rights and how we hope to better protect everyone here.
https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/#80-misinformation
https://legal.lemmy.world/bylaws/
Sincerely,
FHF / LemmyWorld Operations Team
EDIT:
We will be releasing a separate post regarding the moderation incident in the next 24-48 hours, just getting final approval from the team.
So there is a study that shows that forcing your quest for a sense of absolute moral superiority on a obligate or fecultative carnivore by feeding them an unnatural vegan diet may not kill them?
The issue is choice and the fact that you are taking it away. Obligate and fecultative carnivores would choose to eat a diet consisting mainly of meat because that is what they evolved to eat and you are taking that away from them. These studies that say it may not be unhealthy are simply efforts to feed the self-satisfied circle jerk. Efforts to develop a vegan food that obligate and fecultative carnivores would choose to eat are efforts to overcome their nature which is to eat a diet consisting mainly of meat.
Forcing your beliefs on a being that isn't given a choice.
Animal abuse.
To be fair, we do this to pets all the time. What makes it abuse is if it's harmful to them, not that we're forcing it onto them.
Obviously but you can't claim absolute moral superiority when you're taking choice away from another living being. The argument is more about bursting the self-satisfied bubble than it is about any real issue.
You should make that clear in your post, because you currently appear to be arguing that owning pets is animal abuse.
That's quite a leap you're making there. Given that I'm not making that leap with you I will leave you to it. Enjoy.
Were these two statements not meant to be causally related?
Yes, but show me where I said anything at all about pet ownership. You have an agenda and are making things up to support that agenda.
You're right, I introduced the pet ownership angle. I think it would be hard to argue that owning a pet does not involve you overriding their choices. Letting your pet do whatever they want-- the opposite of training them-- is in fact generally considered poor pet ownership. I think there's a deep and unexplored conversation to be had about the ethics of pet ownership, but mostly I just wanted to point out that making decisions for your pet that they would not have made (for example, not letting your dog run into dangerous areas, keeping a cat inside, or preventing your pet from attacking other small animals) is not in itself animal abuse like you've said. It becomes abuse when your decisions or choices harm the animal more than they help it (ie. choosing to malnourish your cat by feeding them a vegan diet instead of meat).
TL;DR: Pet ownership necessarily means you're making decisions for your pet, not all of which they would choose themselves, so claiming that doing that is immoral means pet ownership would be immoral. Since I think we agree that pet ownership is not immoral, making decisions for your pet must not always be immoral-- it's only immoral when the decisions harm your pet.
And lastly, no, I don't have an agenda. I'm not vegan and I don't own any pets. Please don't accuse people of acting in bad faith if you're not absolutely sure that it's true. I'm just being annoying here because I'm interested in this subject from a purely theoretical angle.
Ok, valid point.
My cats are free to leave. They can walk away and never come back any time they choose. They choose to come back. They choose to sleep on the couch, or in the bed we put on the landing on the stairs, or in the cardboard box houses my daughter made and put on the table in front of the window where they can watch the birds. They occasionally choose to eat a snake or mouse that they caught but mostly eat the expensive kibble we provide. They get pets and scratches and medical care when they need it.
Have you ever tried to train a cat?
Our chickens are the same. I let them out in the morning and they come back at night. They could leave and there would be nothing that I could do about it but they don't.
The argument sort of falls apart in the face of reality.
Are your pets vaccinated and fixed? Would they have ever chosen that themselves? Do you get their dental work done (something most vets only do under anesthesia because cats hate it so much!)? If you're responsibly taking care of your pets, you are making choices for them they do not like.
Spaying/neutering and vaccinating your pet is responsible pet ownership as is feeding them a diet appropriate to their needs and evolution. A vegan diet is inappropriate for an obligate or facultative carnivore.
The choice argument is silly at I've said elsewhere in this conversation. It only works on those who believe that they are absolutely morally superior, like vegan extremists, because taking the choice away from another being shatters that bubble of self-delusionional superiority.
It's pretty hard to force a diet on a cat, especially if it is let outside. My family had cats when I was a kid. They could go outside when they pleased. Usually they came home at dinner time. Sometimes they stayed away for days or weeks, then came home. On a few occasions they never came back. Whether they met with unpleasant fates, found new human caretakers, or decided to live in the wild, we have no way to know. In any case though, staying with us was entirely optional for them and they usually but not always took the option. In fact they sometimes tried to feed us, by bringing home dead mice and squirrels and dropping them in front of us. (I don't think we ever ate any).
Where is the choice being taken away? We offered them a commercial catfood diet and let them take it or leave it. Veganism didn't come into this (we had never heard of veganism at that time) but that is irrelevant.
I said the same thing somewhere else. My cats can leave whenever they want. They don't.
I'm not a vegan, but it really cracks me up when people get up in arms about this subject they barely understand and arrive at the position that pet ownership/meat eating itself is unethical because it removes animal agency. Like, you're making an ethically vegan argument you know.
I think that's the point, the ethically vegan argument is not to own a pet that eats meat, and it's odd these particular vegans in the channel couldn't see it, and all the non vegans were pointing it out.
Pet ownership in general is not vegan, even if you gaslight yourself into calling them companions.
I'm not going to construct a straw man to dunk on all vegans without knowing their particular situation. I will, however, respond to absolutely silly and inconsistent arguments.
But you did construct a strawman which I addressed. Anecdotally the bit about pets for vegans being "companions" came directly from the person who posted the initial thread calling out rookie (which by the way, rookie seems like kinda of a jerk and probably shouldn't be making decisions like these).
An animal is incapable of providing any consent, they are incapable of understanding the ethical choices a vegan may make, or the reasons behind it. The fact that instead of many viable alternatives, they selfishly choosing to keep an animal that would need to have those choices made for them is an ethical problem in their own philosophy.
These vegans choose to keep a cute kitty or puppy, even old and sick kitties and puppies are cute and rewarding, for selfish reasons. If you truly need to keep an animal, keep a vegan pet. Then you don't need to participate in the food system, and a non-vegan pet owner can provide for the animal best suited to their lifestyle.
Like there is an understanding that engaging in the meat industry, even on the fringes, perpetuates that industry hurting animals. The same is true for pets, even good pet owners engage and support a system where by animals are exploited and hurt, even if it's not THEIR animal. I don't see why this is so hard, honestly.
I called it a straw man because neither of us are vegans and creating an argument between ourselves about a hypothetical vegan's ethics seems about as productive as sniffing our own farts.
That's not the definition of a strawman. We can discuss this philosophy from outside of it. That's a thing that's ok to do!
Radical veganism is extremism. Extremism is about a sense of absolute superiority and the ability to self-absolve. Vegan extremists are the same as every other type of extremist in that sense.
You're the one making radical inflexible arguments here with an air of supremacy and lack of nuance while self absolving, hoss. That's why what you're saying is ethically inconsistent. You should take your own advice.
"No you are!"
Good one.
Of course, it's only the other side that's ever inconsistent and inflexible, never my incorruptible logical side.
Straw man!
Another good one!
Do a Gish Gallop now. GISH GALLOP! GISH GALLOP! GISH GALLOP!
The lack of self awareness is impressive at least.
That's quite an argument we're having in your head.
I'm well aware of your inability to recognize it.
K
Pot: meet kettle.
Ah you're a committed follower of our resident veterinary nutrition scientist and his opinions on "fecultative" carnivores and his extensive literature review of "I don't believe that shit", huh?
You are welcome to group me with whomever you like. It doesn't change the statement.
I was just clarifying your position, or your lack of one in this case.
I believe I made a position clear to you elsewhere. While reading through the thread I couldn't help but be amused at your statement here clearly complaining about something you yourself are doing - and advocating for.
Thus: pot meet kettle.
Oh so you are the eminent vet nutritionist with published literature reviews in this case. My apologies. It's good to meet you kettle. I thought you were just a random asshole without a particular point.
Lashing out like you are is unbecoming and honestly is a bad look. If you can't handle criticism I suggest you stop injecting yourself into topics you are ill equipped to discuss.
Haha. Yes, I should focus on responding to the erudite point of "you're not very smart" that you originally raised with me huh? I'm sorry for devolving the conversation from your lofty heights. Obviously you have real issues to raise here and are not about shitposting.
There's a time and a place for it. This isn't it. Further: are you really going to try walking the failing argument back as an attempt to shitpost? My guy, the hole is deep enough already.
Ah, it seems my sarcasm was lost on you, unfortunate, though not exactly surprising.
Based on the general reception to your comments it would appear you need to work on your delivery, eh?
Yes, I'm greatly wounded by not meeting the sensibilities of you and whoever if out to satisfy their moral outrage about specially formulated vegan cat food. I might not even make it into the next presidential debate at this rate.