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this post was submitted on 21 Aug 2024
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"the orders to invade Russia"
If it's true that there were orders from the top to invade russia and that soldiers where waiting for these it sounds like the government is giving out plans and commanding the army. The government of ukraine and people from ukraine are two different things. When people ask what's the alternative to send billions to the ukrainian government what they need to understand is that people can defend themself even without an authority on top of them playing war games with soldiers and possibly forcing conscript to go on missions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization_in_Ukraine#2024
Yeah, that's typically how the military works.
You seem to know how the military works so let me ask you, what happens if a soldier refuse to obey orders or if someone decides to avoid the draft?
That has nothing to do with your assertion that top-down direction in the army is weird or that the military is somehow not part of the government.
Fascists think the military should give orders to the civilian government.
No they cannot.
This is even more true today as the amount of technology and co-ordination required to field a successful force is many orders of magnitude more complex. It is truly insane to suggest that people can just 'defend themselves' against an army unless I'm grossly misunderstanding your point.
People have always found ways to defend themself and have always fought against tyrants.
You are quoting someone who was fine with slavery and probably lived an aristrocratic life.
You may have missed the part where ukrainians were defending themself from the second biggest army in the world with homemade drones.
Defending yourself and launching invasions or orchestrating soldiers are two different things
I never claimed that defending yourself was the same as commanding an army. In fact my whole point was that it's not. You haven't addressed the core criticism of your post which is that a group of individuals can in no way be as effective as an army.
Yes Ukrainians have been defending themselves with home made drones...and jets, and artillery, and air defence missiles, and ... an army. That's why there is still a Ukraine.
"People will always find a way" is a nice sentiment but I wouldn't bet my life or the lives of my family and countrymen on it.
They don't have to, their goal is to defend themself not to be the tool of same politician and invade other countries.
That's what they have been doing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
Yes, they do have to because an army is what they're up against. I feel like we're living in different dimensions here or something. How do you expect a group of individuals to shoot down jets and incoming rockets, or form supply lines, or strategise at the level required to mount an effective defence, or maintain the necessary international relationships to ensure bullets keep getting delivered? That's barely even scratching the surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency
Yes, those things exist. And therefore?
that's an answer to your previous question, i suggest you to open these link and read them.
Alright, mate. As fun as it's been I guess we're done here then. Suffice to say we are all glad you're not in charge of the defence of Ukraine
Ah the old, I can't defend my stance so I'll link a lot stuff and say "do your own research.". Weak attempt to distance yourself. If you actually understood and were able to defend your point you would. You didn't because you can't lol.
Let's just link the concept of guerrilla warfare like it means anything. It's failed multiple times throughout history but just the concept of it existing process my point! What a brain dead take.
Ahh ok. So you know nothing about military warfare at all. Scattered resistance against an army is nothing but cleanup. The defense needs to be organized to be effective. How are you not embarrassed saying this BS?
Yeah and they have lost many times through history. What is with your constant selective memory and bringing up vague facts like this while telling others to stay on topic.
Grade D tankie troll.
While soldiers should be well informed and educated, it is insane to say that an army can rely on ad-hoc strategy and bottom up leadership. That might work for guerilla warfare tactics, but it does not create a coherent force in any other situation.
There should be civilian control of the military, but internally militaries require command hierarchy for the most significant decisions.
The president/parliament says we attack this country with these wargoals, the general says we attack this region, the commander says we attack this town, the officer says we attack this road, and I decide where to walk and what to shoot. There is no time to have a committee meeting about this and it is bad for opsec for every soldier to know where every other soldier is going.
Like the guerrilla used in Afghanistan by the talibans which proved successful in defeating the strongest army in the world?
Which took 20 years after the country that fully occupied them decided to leave.
You should always do the right thing regardless of how much time it takes.
If you want to compare these two wars i just discovered something i didn't know, it seem so far more people died in the russia-ukraine war that in the latest afghan war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021)
The US wasn't conducting a genocidal war in Afghanistan. The Russian government is explicitly attempting to erase Ukraine as an entity and anyone who calls themselves Ukrainian with it.
Sorry, what is the "right" thing here?
The right thing is fighting for freedom and not for authoritarian governments
Yeah cool, so if you're ukrainiaU kill as many Russian soldiers as possible in the most organized and efficient way possible.
The right thing would be for you to stop spreading all this false and cherry picked information. But here you are, running PR for Russia, who is clearly not doing the right thing.
Decentralized command is/was official doctrine in the Swedish military too. A single squadron in the woods, with a few fighter jets and a remote airstrip, is an independent entity in the Swedish military, intended to operate behind enemy lines, independent of the rest of the military.
However this only works for guerilla warfare, and Ukraine isn't at the point of insurgency yet. There is some partisan warfare in occupied Ukraine, but the majority of Ukraine's army is not behind enemy lines. It would be a lot harder for Ukraine to protect civilians and rearm if they downgraded to guerilla tactics.
Not to mention, comparing Afghanistan with Ukraine is such a nonsensical comparison. Russia is dedicating their entire army to Ukraine, and conscripting tens of thousands of soldiers. Russia loses more soldiers in a day than the US lost during the entire 20 year occupation.
Believe me, Russia would not have a fun time trying to occupy the entirety of Ukraine, and that's why they won't win this war. But the fact that Ukraine still has a coherent military has helped them defend their country, and helped preserve Ukraine from descending into complete chaos.
Stop talking about history like you know anything.
It was so effective because the US was pressured about collateral damage. Clearly Russia doesn't care about that. If we could have just bombed every single building in Afghanistan it would have been cake.
Jesus, you can't have a conversation without constantly misrepresenting things and ignoring obvious facts.
Your point is?
I it's a tech bro trying to sell AI where the learning model is the Ukrainian people...
A few years ago this same guy tried to sell a blockchain weapons inventory system.
Before that crypto unlocked by biometrics just for soldiers so they can't lose their money.
Before that war "hover boards" for easier mobility and more speed through the fields.
Before that pet rocks so soldiers won't get lonely.
Did you read my comment? what is it not clear?
Everything. Are you a bot?
First open and read the article, there they talk about receiving "orders to invade russia"
Doesn't this make you rise an eyebrow?
…no
Do you not understand how an army works?
I guess i do. Do you not realize that receiving orders to invade another country is not a good thing?
So you are against the Russian military invading Ukraine in 2014? And again in 2022? And Syria in 2015? And Georgia in 2008?
Russia can end the fighting just by leaving Ukrainian territory. You are "against war", so why not advocate for that?
Edit: just ignore this guy. His posts are mostly downvoted.
You are replying under a comment in which i said that receiving orders to invade another country is not a good thing. I'm advocating against other countries invasions, what exactly are you advocating for?
The Russians should get the fuck out of Ukraine?
Russians soldiers received orders to invade another country
"Not a good thing?"
So when we invaded Germany in WW2, that was a bad thing. We shouldn't have done that? Jesus you are thick lol.
Let's just ignore context and nuance, just make sweeping statements like a 13 year old who thinks they've figured out the world.
Turnabout is fair play. Russia has no immediate intensions to stop the war, so Ukrainians took the fight to them.
I see that the St Petersburg Research Centre is still thriving after Prigozhin's death.
If that is true than how evil are the Russian soldiers for wanting to invade an innocent country and willfully kill their civilians?
....and blocked.
Message for the downvoters since there's quite many: I don't wish anyone to experience the horrors of war, when it inevitably happens remember that you stood for it.
Russia did not give the Ukrainian people much alternative while they stole land, killed their friends and family and kept lying about it all. No one wishes for war, but you cannot appease a bully indefinitely.
No one here stands for war. They stand for Ukraine defending itself, which you seem to have some strange issue with.
And I stood on the right side.
Going to war to kill evil invaders is not bad.
Invading an innocent country and killing their civilians is.
Sometimes people have no choice, war must happen at times. Until Russia, the ones who started and continue to perpetuate this war back out, then this war invasion is highly justified from a moral standpoint.